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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#401
Doesn't YC (Sam Altman) invest in things like Lambda Code school?

Is this not like Ford saying "ICE Vehicles have a long future" - It's clearly bias and its truth has no basis in fact. The "Student Loan" crisis, is a US crisis. Where as the university system is a global one. So you're really saying that the US will stop doing Higher Education, while the rest of the world continues? That feels like a bad move.

Is the problem with the US College system an educational one or a financial one? Seems like the latter, which means the solution isn't to stop the former.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#403
post #380

> It seems very clear that elite colleges discriminate against Asian-American students, and that the Supreme Court is going to find this. (One expert said no discrimination would result in around 65% Asian-American admits.) > The fact that this has been so tolerated speaks volumes. Tolerated? It's been encouraged for at least two decades, under the name "affirmative action".

only “tolerated” because we don’t have actual journalism but instead a PR (propaganda) arm of our kleptocracy . asian communities have been under represented politically. #stopasianhate was a positive turning point to engage asian communities , and we need #stopasiandiscrimination next

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who or what is Polymatter? Why do you trust them? It would be useful if people said why they trust whatever they are linking to. Random stuff on the Internet isn't worth the time.

To 99.99% of people on the internet, your comment would be "random stuff on the Internet". I'm sorry, but who are you and why should I trust your reasons to trust other people?

[deleted]

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#405
post #380

> It seems very clear that elite colleges discriminate against Asian-American students, and that the Supreme Court is going to find this. (One expert said no discrimination would result in around 65% Asian-American admits.) > The fact that this has been so tolerated speaks volumes. Tolerated? It's been encouraged for at least two decades, under the name "affirmative action".

I feel like this glosses over the fact that more people than can be admitted are qualified to be admitted to the schools who "discriminate".

When the pool of qualified applicants is 3x your available positions, it seems to make sense to me to attempt to match the population makeup of the United States at large when selecting from that pool, since otherwise you're more or less going to do it randomly.

Helping one group of people does not mean hurting another group of people; life is not zero sum, and pretending like getting admitted to Harvard or not is the only metric in this conversation is ridiculous. There are approximately zero children, Asian or otherwise, whose only shot is to get into Harvard or not go to college at all.

Being denied admission to Harvard due to a luck-of-the-draw is not discrimination, it's a lottery. Sam Altman may have a larger point, but the Harvard discrimination case is not an argument that supports that point.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#406
post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

Schools have been doing these things for years and yet half of HN have their degrees and have a start-up or two that have a direct line from connections developed at the unis they got their degrees in. Come on, universities doing morethanonething isn't what changed which caused student debt to explode. I'm not saying these are not problems but there literally is no through-line, it doesn't make sense as an explanatio…

Student debt has exploded because notwithstanding their outrageous tax advantages colleges are demonstrably profit maximizing firms. They induce unlimited demand for ever more credentials though a process of continual devaluation and then charge as much as the market will possibly bear through extremely sophisticated price discrimination.

Politicians answer to this crisis of rapaciousness is to suggest that the public should pay the ever escalating costs while suggesting nothing to rein in their growth. This suggests that the politicians have been captured in some way.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#407
post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

FWIW, I think that this factor:

> If the upper class want someplace to send their kids to read poetry and binge drink for 4 years

Is the heart of the problem. For a long time, this was basically the core function of universities - to make people part of the elite. We told ourselves that it was actually about the things being taught rather than social connections. Maybe to a certain extent it even was.

But then, operating on that assumption, we say, what gives these people the right to be elites? Let's make it more accessible! Send anyone who's smart enough and can afford it to school.

We do that. And many of them do go on to get better and higher-paying jobs. To some extent, society creates more jobs for them to do, and to some extent, existing jobs get education inflation, requiring advanced degrees for no real reason.

But why stop there? This is biased against the people who can't afford it. Let's create a ton of scholarships and student loan programs to make it more affordable so more people go. This kind of works, and kind of increases the prices even more (due to bad design of the loan system) and increases education inflation some too.

We've already made it so attractive, might as well tell all high school students that they're failures if they don't go to college, even if it really isn't for them. Tell 'em that so hard that the blue-collar jobs we do still need start to have trouble getting employees and sometimes actually increase in wage past the point of some degree-requiring jobs.

The way the whole financing of the system works makes the whole thing a huge money-pit too, which helps it keep absorbing more functions.

It sure feels like the whole system has gone crazy and needs some major reworking. I'm not sure what the new healthier system would look like or how we transition to it, but something needs to happen. Sorry, not everyone can be the elite. We should stop telling people that they're a failure in life if they don't join the elite and stop making them perform signs of elite status, like degrees at high-ranked universities, to get jobs that ultimately aren't all that important.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations. As If you have to go to college to become an adult. A lot of college programs seem like their purpose is for some very wealthy and sheltered children to become “cultured”, but that is completely unrelated to the skills needed to be a functioning adult or to take significant responsibilities in your life.

Without a well-informed populace, democracy cannot function. Contrary to what you have argued, becoming cultured (in other words, understanding the philosophy, ethics, history, and fundamental assumptions about how and why society functions) are essential skills for taking responsibility, and the lack of these skills is behind virtually every major deficiency in society. College and university were never supposed to…

Without a well-informed populace, democracy cannot function.

College campuses have gone through severe idealogical capture, so the idea that going through a 4-year degree leads to a well informed populace is laughable.

I would argue that a 4-year peace corps posting in an improvised country would lead to a better informed population than any liberal arts education.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, you must have that special type of clairvoyance that allows you to look at a person and determine both their income and the cost of their phones and clothes. Do you make your money teaching this skill or do you do web apps?

i have google. it shows how much iPhones cost.

Does Google tell you their income?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How are both of these true? If a job pays poorly, doesn't that suggest there are many people willing and able to do those jobs, relative to the need for the job to be done? Or it suggests that labor doesn't flow through the system as easily as the theory assumes it does, or that the theory assumes incorrect things about the world, or that it's just wrong on the face of it in a whole lot of actual real world cases.…

Yes, definitely, there might be an alternate explanation that's closer to reality, than what I proposed. Any ideas?

Well, at a first pass: Labor market negotiating power is unbalanced; owners of capital are loathe to give it away under any circumstances; workers, especially poor workers, don't have a lot of flexibility to shop around for jobs when they need one; and by and large modern business thinking & planning is incredibly short-term and liable to walk itself into stupid and avoidable situations like not being able to stock shelves with toilet paper for six months or sell $30k cars for lack of $5 worth of old computer chips.

Basically, you've got a pile of short-sighted, emotional apes, often operating under conditions of stress or duress, with imperfect information and a planning system that's effectively hijacking stress responses designed to respond to actual flesh & blood predators to evaluate interest rates. All that indicates to me that the cohabitation of "we can't find workers" and "no, we're not raising wages" is maybe less surprising than theory would suggest.

Specific to what's happening in the farm labor market, I'd suspect there's a lot of interplay between the immigration system being pretty broken and farm owners being on the whole kind of crappy businessmen that leads to this particular market distortion.

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