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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We really need farm workers, and most of them live in poverty. How are both of these true? If a job pays poorly, doesn't that suggest there are many people willing and able to do those jobs, relative to the need for the job to be done? Maybe this results from some market distortion? But AFAIK the main market distortion in the farming industry is the opposite: subsidies that make farming more attractive than it woul…

> How are both of these true? If a job pays poorly, doesn't that suggest there are many people willing and able to do those jobs, relative to the need for the job to be done? Or it suggests that labor doesn't flow through the system as easily as the theory assumes it does, or that the theory assumes incorrect things about the world, or that it's just wrong on the face of it in a whole lot of actual real world cases.…

Yes, definitely, there might be an alternate explanation that's closer to reality, than what I proposed.

Any ideas?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like how the word STEM gets thrown around because I feel it whitewashes the fact that most of the opportunity is in ad-supported web apps. Anyone trying to work in chemistry or physics finds this out the hard way.

Plenty of opportunity in all kinds of software. Ad supported webapps get the headlines because they (or at least the ones you're thinking about) aggregate really well, but there's a lot of work out there. Academic physics research is not very useful economically, since we've figured out most of the stuff that will ever contribute to engineering needs -- building stuff that real people benefit from -- in our lifetimes…

> Plenty of opportunity in all kinds of software. Ad supported webapps get the headlines because they (or at least the ones you're thinking about) aggregate really well, but there's a lot of work out there.

I mean, take a look at the next "who's hiring" page. Ad supported webapps seem pretty well represented.

> Academic physics research is not very useful economically, since we've figured out most of the stuff that will ever contribute to engineering needs -- building stuff that real people benefit from -- in our lifetimes. Not all! But most.

My phone lasts a day on a battery because we've managed to turn off the CPU as much as possible - we've got a supercomputer in our pocket that we can't use at its full capacity because battery technology isn't advancing. Academic physics research is not very useful economically because we've defined "useful economically" as "able to be converted into profits within 2-5yrs", and unfortunately we did that about 20 years ago, so the whole thing's sorta running on fumes right now.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

> More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations. This is just middle-class religious belief. And a good one, because middle-class professional people have to reproduce themselves every generation, so they have to center credentialism or fall to working class or poverty. If you're born rich, it's easy to die rich…

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's based on the entry level salary for California tech workers being six figures whereas the wage for farm workers is an exception to laws such that they can be paid below minimum wage.

> farm workers is an exception to laws such that they can be paid below minimum wage. I’m all for setting the minimum wage for farm workers at $25/hr. Within 2-3 years every manual farm worker will be replaced by a machine, and we’ll all be better off for it. Well, not the manual workers, temporarily. But then we’ll have to deal with the problem of unemployment honestly rather than leaving make-work jobs around.

Unemployment for migrant workers means they won't come so that isn't a problem.

The real problem is machines can't replace those jobs or they would have. 25/h would mean very high prices for local food so everything will come via imports.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#375
post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

I disagree. Schools were founded on the principle that the best and brightest minds will teach the new generation (this goes all the way back to Athens). If you separate the researchers into a "research university" and the other students into "trade schools" eventually you'll just make the class divide all that much worse because the lower tier schools will attract only those teachers who are more interested in pedagogy than the subject, or who themselves are not as qualified.

If you were a student (or the parent of a student) looking to advance in your field, and you had the choice, would you choose Harvard or say a local community college trade school? It's easy to make massive sweeping sociological choices for the public without considering that you yourself would not make that choice. Obviously, multiply your preferences times every student in the field.

If you want to say there's a funding crisis and you want to deal with that funding crisis in some other way, then yes, I agree.

Also, I don't personally care for sports. I still think they have a place at a University, just not to the extent that they're funded. If independent undergraduate research projects were awarded (and advertised!) with the same funding as sports teams and sports teams had their funding lowered, I think that might be interesting. Incubator lab competitions in science research projects that would have the results published in journals. Start up accelerators with paid promotions etc etc.

How else to organize the budget at universities I don't know how to speculate. It means that with a finite amount of money some resource is getting cut somewhere and someone else is having an increase in endowment which gets super political. I'm also not necessarily sure that cutting liberal arts is a good idea. Many of the people I went to school with (at least one I helped pass advanced maths...) spent the majority of their time drinking and ended up working in investment banks. Forcing them to read a little poetry or sit through a lecture or two on a few sociology courses is maybe a good idea so that when they're out there ruling the (financial) universe they have a bit of awareness of the way the rest live.

My thoughts for what they're worth.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#376
post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

Schools have been doing these things for years and yet half of HN have their degrees and have a start-up or two that have a direct line from connections developed at the unis they got their degrees in. Come on, universities doing morethanonething isn't what changed which caused student debt to explode. I'm not saying these are not problems but there literally is no through-line, it doesn't make sense as an explanation for why student debt has ballooned!

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#377
post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

Your first three bullets are all the same thing. “How to think” and knowledge of culture are marketable skills, as is experience with cutting-edge research.

I don’t know where you got the idea that learning about “art” is an essential job of college. I wish it were, but it’s not. And I agree that college sports are too big of their own business.

Fundamentally you cannot “train” people for jobs that don’t exist yet. I went to college only 2 decades ago and nothing remotely like my job existed at the time.

You can educate people in college though, and that is what is required to keep our society moving forward. (And prevent it from sliding backward.)

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

> More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations The "preparing to be an adult" value decayed exponentially for me. The first year staying in halls with my peers was extremely valuable. The rest of the years were not so valuable. Also, this value was 95% social. There was very little that uni itself taught me abo…

I think that 95% social is pretty important. I know it was for me. If I knew everything I know now about software after high school I could have gotten a good job, but coming out of high school I was socially completely inept. College accelerated me so much in that regard that I honestly can’t imagine my life without it today.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM jobs are the main viable path for economic stability and freedom. People repeat that but what is it based on? Most of the population, including most people who have economic stability and freedom, have not had STEM jobs and very likely will not have STEM jobs. More importantly, college is about much more than job training. College prepares people to be adults in every way, not to be a resource for corporations…

> not to be a resource for corporations I never went to college to get a STEM degree to be a resource for anybody. I went because I imagined myself being Tom Swift. Of course, Elon Musk turned into a real life Tom Swift!

Vomit. Was Tom Swift an self-centered emerald scion who got lucky with money and poured it into his pet projects? News to me.

Seriously, Musk came into a ton of money in the dot-com era, knew how to maintain that money because of his background, seems to be a capable hands-on project manager and natural self-marketing. You surely know people smarter than him who didn't acquire the mass amounts of money required to do what he does; I certainly do.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#380
> It seems very clear that elite colleges discriminate against Asian-American students, and that the Supreme Court is going to find this. (One expert said no discrimination would result in around 65% Asian-American admits.)

> The fact that this has been so tolerated speaks volumes.

Tolerated? It's been encouraged for at least two decades, under the name "affirmative action".

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