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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#571

Post by CityOfThrowaway »

scaramanga wrote: post #551
throwawaycities wrote: post #451

I think the writing on the wall is clear regarding student loans. The entire notion of taxpayer funded student loans is a scam on both taxpayers and students. It’s a system that allows the colleges/universities to charge any tuition they want and guarantees there will be an artificial demand. For about a decade at least 1M student loan holders default per year. Long before the defaults reached that high, everyone inv…

So you're saying that higher education is (yet another) public good that fails when turned in to a for-profit enterprise?

The exact opposite actually. It's a good for-profit enterprise that fails when it's narrative twists it into a public good.

The problem isn't that university doesn't work. The problem is that the federal government has propped it up with so much poorly underwritten debt that the prices have ballooned beyond value delivered.

That would be fine if the audience taking the debt was rational. But the discourse around university is itself irrational. And the people taking the loans have underdeveloped brains that are bad at long term thinking.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#572

Post by NalNezumi »

nostrebored wrote: post #499
jerojero wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think access to education is a human right? I find your last paragraph a bit troubling, I agree that becoming a part of the elite does not really have a significance with regards to your own worth. But the USA is not a country that revolves around the middle class, its a country that revolves around the elites. In America not being part of the elite is a failure because the political and economical system is m…

European elite go to American schools. Just like the elite from all around the world. The premise is faulty from the onset. Most ‘top’ European schools are mediocre outside of liberal arts degrees.

I wish someone would have told me this is completely false when I was in college, then I wouldn't have been stressed about it.

Truth is the education quality doesn't correlate that strongly with "top" University ranking; at above top X ranked university, or top university in respective country, the quality of education is mostly the same. The difference in the ranking only really reflects the research output/opportunities and networking opportunities.

This becomes so glaringly clear as soon as you start being the interviewing side of the job.

European elites seems to not go to US top universities either; top talent (in intelligence) from upper middle class and above, maybe. But there's more to gain networking in their own countries top universities than abroad. (hence the exchange year system for that)

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#573

Post by lanstin »

Manuel_D wrote: post #550
wolverine876 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think 2 years of schooling and 2 years of working an becoming financially self-sufficient would better prepare people for adulthood than 4 years of schooling. Software development, electrical engineering, and plenty of other tech jobs could be taught in 2 years. Engineering programs are widely considered to be difficult to complete in 4 years. Where do you get 2 years? Also, after my sophomore year in college, I…

One, eliminating a bunch of required courses not relevant to the job would make things go faster. Sure, things like humanities are fun but for many people getting an education it's not worth the cost-benefit analysis. Plenty of people taking on debt going to college to improve their future prospects would be better served Two, I don't think someone needs a full engineering degree to become productive. Writing my own…

You get a lot of writing and analytical reading practice in humanities. Both of which are generally very useful in modern corporations.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#574

Post by ryan93 »

jeffbee wrote: post #342
crackercrews wrote: post #52

Definitely agree that removing the SAT appears to be related to the upcoming supreme court case about affirmative action. COVID was a good reason to delay it for a couple years. But schools are pushing it out further. That makes no sense. It seems the SAT is increasingly considered "racist" because it reveals racial disparities in learning. What's next? Get rid of the driver's license test because it turns that white…

The SAT's past racial bias is still echoing through the nation. There were still test questions based on Very White Things like cotillions and yachting as recently as 40 years ago. The repercussions of those things could be that some person barely missed getting admitted to a university, took a lifetime earnings hit, lived in a poorer town with worse schools, and now their kids who may be very smart and talented also…

“As recently as 40 years ago” lol. Also please find me some math SAT questions that require knowledge of upper class white shit

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#576

Post by ergocoder »

mach1ne wrote: post #43

I don't see the point of cancelling student debt. It's obvious it's not fixing the problem. Probably the only reason it's even on the table is the fact that it's not stepping on any toes.

If I had student debt, I would scream at the top of my lungs too.

It is no surprise that many scream about it.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#577

Post by wolverine876 »

newsclues wrote: post #366
wolverine876 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who or what is Polymatter? Why do you trust them? It would be useful if people said why they trust whatever they are linking to. Random stuff on the Internet isn't worth the time.

It’s a brand for a YouTube channel, like the name for TV programs. Judge the content for yourself.

> Judge the content for yourself.

IMHO the onus to establish an assertion (as a general term) is on the person making it:

1. Imagine I post an assertion, 'the moon is made of blue cheese', and it's read by 20 people. Should all 20 do the research themselves? That's much less efficient than my doing it - I already know where I got it, it's my claim, and it's 1/20th the labor.

2. Think of all the assertions you read: Do you have time to research them all?

3. The Internet is filled with information, mostly BS. I don't have time for even a fraction of the accurate info. If we had 1% of the info, but it was backed by credible research, it would be no loss in info (nobody can process even 1%) and great gain.

Finally, people can't judge content it unless they have expertise in the domain. There is plenty of research showing that to be true - that fact is fundamental to misinformation and disinformation, even something as simple as paid Amazon reviews - and it's easy to observe. Think of something in which you have expertise, like your profession: Could you persuade a non-expert? I could persuade one of almost anything, it seems; they just have no idea what are the questions, the facts (beyond a very limited range), or the answers.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#578

Post by brigandish »

wolverine876 wrote: post #564
brigandish wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's responding to an anecdote - one that sounds absurd, by the way - so I would say that responding with an anecdote is fine, especially one that actually sounds realistic. Let's hear some anecdotes about being pushed hard in schools based in poor areas before dismissing it.

> one that sounds absurd, by the way It sounds absurd to you, but isn't that your own ignorance? You weren't there; they were. I've heard many tell similar stories. Again, look in the NY Times from a few years ago; elite colleges not only accept it, but have tried to mitigate it. > one that actually sounds realistic Isn't this just saying that it agrees with what you already believe?

> It sounds absurd to you, but isn't that your own ignorance?

Or my experience.

Of course, perhaps schools in poor areas really are pushing the children hard to go to extraordinary heights and it’s just the fault of poor people for being so damned useless that they ignore it or fail.

Or, perhaps, there’s a middle ground to be found, but I doubt it includes people who no one would describe as bright being unaware of the scores they need to enter the next stage of education, if that’s what they desire.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#579

Post by abecedarius »

wpietri wrote: post #458
abecedarius wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Degrees cost companies through increased wages. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)#Job-mar... for the model behind my comment. You’re a hiring manager choosing between Alice and Bob. Alice has a degree, Bob doesn’t; you estimate they’ll be equally productive, and it’s common knowledge that your competitors will judge them the same. Do you offer Bob less, since he doesn’t have student loans to…

Quite a lot of people will indeed pay Alice more, especially if her degree is from a brand-name school. You can look up the stats yourself, but they're striking. I personally build my hiring processes to be relatively blind to elite status signals. But interviewees tell me that's pretty unusual. > You can mention having further disagreements without making it a gratuitous diss. I believe it was both accurate and nece…

You misread: given common knowledge that Alice and Bob are equally promising, all info considered, do you make them different offers?

I'm not at all asking whether Alice with a degree gets better offers than Alice without a degree. We both say she does. At the time we're checking in, Alice's degree is a sunk cost. Your proposal is not: it's extra company investment in the non-degreed after hiring.

> can't even find the politics

Are you sure you want to emphasize anyone's reading ability in this conversation?

And accusing someone of political axe-grinding is a funny way to discourage replies about politics. You could've said, for instance, "Leaving aside any politics here..." That would help engender healthier discourse here on HN.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#580

Post by lostcolony »

CityOfThrowaway wrote: post #571
scaramanga wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that higher education is (yet another) public good that fails when turned in to a for-profit enterprise?

The exact opposite actually. It's a good for-profit enterprise that fails when it's narrative twists it into a public good. The problem isn't that university doesn't work. The problem is that the federal government has propped it up with so much poorly underwritten debt that the prices have ballooned beyond value delivered. That would be fine if the audience taking the debt was rational. But the discourse around univ…

And to be clear - if it was a purely government funded thing there would be strong price controls around it (the same reason why doctors pushed back against the original compulsory medical insurance plans in the 30s, and why there's so much back and forth around medicare covering stuff or not, doctors accepting it or not, etc). But by underwriting debt this way we have an agency problem; the government isn't incentivized to say "no" to bad debt, and students aren't informed enough (just the opposite, as you mention, the discourse is irrational. I don't agree with 'underdeveloped brains', so much as no cultural pressure or life experience to 'count the cost').
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