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US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

canarymedia.com

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Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#161
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NHTSA recognizes that large busses are not cars and use a different solution. Large school buses are heavier and distribute crash forces differently than passenger cars and light trucks do. Because of these differences, bus passengers experience much less crash force than those in passenger cars, light trucks, and vans. NHTSA decided the best way to provide crash protection to passengers of large school buses is…

This NTSB PSA video explains it like "eggs in a carton" [0], but those bus seats look like regular benches, zero molding for an actual fit, like an egg would have inside a carton from all sides. I understand that getting a horde of kids to put on seatbelts is a compliance nightmare, but imho it's difficult to argue how that wouldn't make a massive difference in a crash scenario, particularly during roll-over incident…

How common do you think that is? There seem to be several videos, but perhaps there's a lot of CCTV on school buses.

I can't remember ever seeing pictures of a city bus (as opposed to a long distance bus) overturned in an accident in Europe. City bus-type vehicles are used for public bus service and school bus service ("school bus" is a usage, not a type of vehicle) but searching for things like "bus crash England" shows very, very few cases where a bus has overturned, even when it's come off the road and slid down a slope.

If [1] is anything to go by, the bus needs to hit a similarly heavy vehicle to overturn. Could the American school bus design be susceptible to climbing up/rolling over a car, then tipping, compared to the typical European low-floor lower-centre-of-gravity bus?

(No doubt there are other factors that influence the American school bus design.)

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/dec/16/bus-toppled-colli...

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would significantly expand taxes, and that nearly always faces stiff opposition with voters. Especially when it is an open-ended increase.

> It would significantly expand taxes How exactly? Do you have any examples? Also, have you ever seen the price of car infrastructure? I would be willing to bet that denser walkable urban infrastructure projects are waaaaay cheaper than building and maintaining sprawling road, sewage, and power transmission networks. Sprawl is seriously draining the finances of many small cities and towns in the US. There's a whole b…

Yeah, but it's not terribly likely that you could stop maintaining the sprawl, because it's already there. Certainly not quickly.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#163

When I was a kid like 15 years ago we'd walk to school if it was close. I took the bus until middle school which was like 1 mile away. I hope car usage goes down, especially a single person driving a big SUV. Walk, or bike, to where you need to go. Less cars, more safe.

I'm glad your parents were in an economic situation where you could live walking distance from school in a neighborhood safe enough to do so. Only 9% of students in the US live within a reasonable walking distance.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#164
post #156

'Out of the roughly 500,000 school buses in the U.S., only about 0.2 percent — just over 1,000 — were electric as of the end of 2021' I can see EV buses being practical for future urban short distance pickup and drop off, but the longer haul rural routes, especially in cold climates, seem a long way off to the EV obsessed as a solution to anything. Huge subsidies and grants may seduce a few school boards but the real…

So what you're saying is, there's a huge market opportunity between "0.2%" and "everything other than longer haul routes in cold climates"?

That 'market' is already being served by existing vehicles. If we are interested in reducing pollution read the link I posted.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#165
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would electric buses have more problems on winter roads than ICE buses?

Cold air impacting heath & capacity on the Li batteries, perhaps? Lithium batts tend to be finicky about their temperatures. Even my PHEV chevy volt de-rates the capacity if the ambient air temps hit less than 36*F.

Heating the batteries and passenger compartment is quite expensive energy-wise, you certainly have to calculate that in when determining an appropriate battery size for such an application.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#166
post #130

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

> Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. This is one of the biggest issues with US' private healthcare system. The U.S. government just doesn't feel that direct "cost" in the same way countries that have to pay to fix the health of their citizens do. This is why you see a lot of other countries put higher taxes on sugar,…

Canadian has free healthcare and still has diesel public/school buses

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#167
post #144

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

Do school districts still use diesel? CNG seems pretty popular these days.

Likely the CNG buses are purchased by wealthy districts and the less well off districts purchase the used diesel buses at a discount.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#168
post #30

Apparently there's an important patent on lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries that expires next month (on April 27th). I'm hoping that changes the economics on batteries and that LFPs become cheap and abundant, and widely available from a variety of manufacturers that aren't located in China. LFP seems like the obvious choice for large vehicles like buses unless there's some reason to really need to optimize for r…

I'm curious how they perform in cold conditions. Where I grew up, a solid 50% of the school year was at or below freezing regularly. We really worked those bus heaters -- you know the type, under a few seats scattered around the bus. Curiously, it doesn't seem that buses use heat from the engine, like most ICE vehicles, for heat. Instead, I'm pretty sure they were just using power from the motor for electric heating…

Wonder if radiant floor heating would be a good solution. Adding a warm air blower near the front to counteract cold air intrusion from opening and closing the door could help keep the interior of the bus a nice constant temperature.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#169

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

Even in terms of primary cost, diesel buses are expensive to maintain. My FIL was a mechanic for the local school district for 15 years, so I got a little insight into that aspect of the district. Our medium sized school district, 4 big high schools and all the feeder schools for them, employs around 6 full time mechanics plus their manager with all the equipment and the facility to work on the buses year round plus…

> diesel buses breakdown regularly

In comparison to what? Diesel engines in commercial vehicles are extremely reliable. It certainly could be possible for an electric bus to be more reliable, they certainly have less points of mechanical wear. However, there are a lot of power electronics going into charging their batteries and delivering the battery power to the motors.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#170

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

(Disclaimer: have driven pure electric for going on 7.5 years) It may be more complex: electricity generation is very dirty in some regions, such as where coal is burned. Is it more dirty than diesel emissions? I have no idea, but old diesels were nasty.

Electricity generation CAN be done cleanly, and should in the future continue to get greener.

ICE cars will always give off pollution.

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