Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

canarymedia.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 292 posts

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#121

Post by dont__panic »

elihu wrote: post #30

Apparently there's an important patent on lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries that expires next month (on April 27th). I'm hoping that changes the economics on batteries and that LFPs become cheap and abundant, and widely available from a variety of manufacturers that aren't located in China. LFP seems like the obvious choice for large vehicles like buses unless there's some reason to really need to optimize for r…

I'm curious how they perform in cold conditions. Where I grew up, a solid 50% of the school year was at or below freezing regularly. We really worked those bus heaters -- you know the type, under a few seats scattered around the bus. Curiously, it doesn't seem that buses use heat from the engine, like most ICE vehicles, for heat. Instead, I'm pretty sure they were just using power from the motor for electric heating elements with fans. Given that an electric bus could easily fit an enormous battery slab under the seating, I wonder if electric buses could be even better than ICE buses in cold conditions -- barring the obvious issues with battery efficiency in cold.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#122

Post by sremani »

coryrc wrote: post #84
sremani wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not know if we are in a commodity super-cycle but Li price is brrrrrrr. https://www.dailymetalprice.com/metalpricecharts.php?c=li&u=... The days of falling battery prices in dollar terms are over.

Lithium is a tiny fraction of battery cost.

Materials are 60% cost of Li battery and across the board material costs are increasing. So, I stick to my assessment barring new evidence (which was not provided by your post), that Li battery prices falling in dollar terms is done.

Reference: https://qnovo.com/82-the-cost-components-of-a-battery/

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#123

Post by caseysoftware »

Busses as a Service from a venture-backed company in a ridiculously volatile market..

What happens if/when they run out of funding?

Having a business productivity app go out of business with an "amazing journey" post is irritating but there are 50 other apps that will take their place. Introducing "as a service" here where there are serious legal and even civil rights issues in play is radically different.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#124

Post by [deleted] »

itsoktocry wrote: post #65
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fairly standard reframing when your product has lower TCO but higher upfront costs. If people just look at the upfront cost, they have that 2x or 3x gut reaction and just switch off. Some nerdier types might draw up a spreadsheet and know exactly how many months they'd expect to break even and start saving. People familiar with spreadsheets probably also don't have that much trouble getting loans and paying…

> This is a fairly standard reframing when your product has lower TCO but higher upfront costs. I'd say it's the opposite a lot of times. EVs are one such product. People will say, "sure I'm paying 20k more for the car, but I'll make it up in fuel savings and zero maintenance!" without ever calculating how much fuel and maintenance you'd actually have to use to break even. Then, of course, there is the regulatory and…

[deleted]

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#125

Post by lstodd »

sokoloff wrote: post #108
PaulHoule wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought a number of plastic "jerry cans" that all had stickers on them saying you shouldn't use gasoline or diesel to start fires. Oddly the reason why is different for the two fluids. Gasoline can catch fire quickly and form a fireball, whereas diesel is hard to ignite and won't help start a fire. This movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_5th_Wave_(film) has a scene where the kids set a school bus on fire with t…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nL10C7FSbE compares the flammability of several types of fuels. 2m08s for Jet-A. 3m50s for #2 diesel. 6m03s for heating oil. 7m30s for kerosene (all those are basically the same and surprising to most how not flammable they are in liquid form). 10m15s for avgas. 11m30s for auto gas.

That's some bullshit video.

All you need is some tissue and a gas soldering iron or equivalent lighter. Lights up in under one second.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#126

Post by mywittyname »

sp332 wrote: post #97
jjtheblunt wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Disclaimer: have driven pure electric for going on 7.5 years) It may be more complex: electricity generation is very dirty in some regions, such as where coal is burned. Is it more dirty than diesel emissions? I have no idea, but old diesels were nasty.

It's much cleaner, even after accounting for losses in electricity transport and storage. Power plants are just much more efficient than mobile internal combustion engines.

Let's not forget the diesel emissions cheating scandal. Diesel engines are so amazingly difficult deal with from an emissions perspective that it's basically impossible to build one with an emissions system that doesn't require constant maintenance (filters, additives).

Diesel emissions requirements for commercial vehicles are much more lenient for this reason.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#127

Post by bobthepanda »

caseysoftware wrote: post #123

Busses as a Service from a venture-backed company in a ridiculously volatile market.. What happens if/when they run out of funding? Having a business productivity app go out of business with an "amazing journey" post is irritating but there are 50 other apps that will take their place. Introducing "as a service" here where there are serious legal and even civil rights issues in play is radically different.

I mean, this is how aircraft and trains (and yes, even buses) get leased these days, particularly in the EU.

Vehicle depreciation is a massive headache.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#128

Post by mywittyname »

speedgoose wrote: post #81
jws wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NHTSA recognizes that large busses are not cars and use a different solution. Large school buses are heavier and distribute crash forces differently than passenger cars and light trucks do. Because of these differences, bus passengers experience much less crash force than those in passenger cars, light trucks, and vans. NHTSA decided the best way to provide crash protection to passengers of large school buses is…

It’s a nice way to say that kids can slam the seats.

And airbags is a nice way of saying a little bomb is going to blow up in your face if you crash.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#129

Post by pengaru »

akomtu wrote: post #73
adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason for the 10-12 year lifespan is that ICE motors are really complicated and at a certain point, it's cheaper to throw out the bus than pay for motor repairs. EV motors last a lot longer and are a lot easier to maintain.

Are batteries going to last this long? And batteries are usually 50% of the vehicle price.

They should really be leasing the batteries and buying buses having easily swapped batteries conforming to a standard a competitive power systems market can cater to.

Re: US schools can subscribe to an electric bus fleet at lower prices than diesel

#130

Post by mtgx »

MengerSponge wrote: post #77

The secondary costs of running a diesel fleet are also huge! Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121970/ Even if an electric fleet is the same cost, changing over would save tons of money and alleviate tons of suffering. It's the right thing to do for any ethical reason you…

> Diesel motors generate a substantial amount of fine particulate that is unhealthy for anybody, and particularly unhealthy for children.

This is one of the biggest issues with US' private healthcare system.

The U.S. government just doesn't feel that direct "cost" in the same way countries that have to pay to fix the health of their citizens do. This is why you see a lot of other countries put higher taxes on sugar, gasoline, diesel, etc. Because they see a direct correlation between the consumption of those things and them having to invest more in their national healthcare system out of their tax money.

Meanwhile, in the US, since it's the citizens that pay out of pocket, that money still goes into the economy, so it's kind of all the same to the government whether or not they get sick or not. They may notice some correlation in the long-term, but the negative effects of these things are not nearly as urgent to the government.

Post reply on HN