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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#311

Post by ericmay »

freeflight wrote: post #307
ericmay wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What other countries are constantly drone assassinating people in other countries territories? So you can only be murdered in your sleep by a drone? Nothing else counts? But yea sure whatever. Here's 5 seconds of Google search [1]. > but those campaigns accompany full blown open military campaigns, quite a bit different to US signature strike operations. I think that's a bizarre distinction to draw. Why would a mil…

> But yea sure whatever. Here's 5 seconds of Google search [1]. That's neither a French citizen nor is it anything beyond an anecdote. If you can show me France's equivalent to Pakistan [0], then we might be getting somewhere. > I think that's a bizarre distinction to draw. Why would a military operation justify anything? It's not bizarre at all; Weapons of war being used in a conflict of war is something very differ…

> That's neither a French citizen nor is it anything beyond an anecdote.

Well I don't know why it would matter that it's a French citizen. And I'm not sure how in the world you're claiming this is an anecdote as if France's drone strike were untrue. Do you have a direct source that contradicts the account of the French government?

> If you can show me France's equivalent to Pakistan [0], then we might be getting somewhere.

Why would I need to show you that? You asked for an example, not "show me an exact equivalent to this thing I haven't previously mentioned".

> It's not bizarre at all; Weapons of war being used in a conflict of war is something very different than dropping weapons of war on a civilian population you are not officially at war with.

Ok then we're at war with Pakistan (since that's the example you're using). Great now we're back to where we started and you got the "war" designation you wanted.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#312

Post by PoignardAzur »

gambler wrote: post #266

I am sure after learning this all Americans will take to the streets and after a massive protest the government will defund CIA and prosecute everyone responsible for the related crimes. Right? And if that doesn't happen, European companies will cancel American accounts, IKEA will close shop here, GOG will refuse to sell games in US, etc, etc. Right? Because, as I've learned on HN in the last two weeks, all citizens…

> Because, as I've learned on HN in the last two weeks, all citizens are responsible for what their government is doing,

Yup. They absolutely are.

There is no way the US's long history of human right abuses would have gone on for so long if the american people weren't fundamentally okay with it.

Doesn't mean anything will be done about it.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#313

Post by vkou »

pmarreck wrote: post #164
philovivero wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Let's do make it personal. (I'll rephrase another commenter's comment) If I disassemble you and redistribute your body parts, I could save several people who are in dire need of a heart, some kidneys, some blood. Should I just go ahead and do this? If not, why not?

I never said someone had to die. In your case, someone does.

Why should it matter? We could save three or four lives by ending just one. Surely, the lives of four people are at least a few times more valuable than that of one.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#314

Post by monocasa »

leereeves wrote: post #306
throwawaycities wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said it was a complete list. On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members. Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights.

> On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members. The US has also signed but not yet ratified the treaty. We're not one of the 41 who haven't signed. > Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights. I couldn't name any countries I would consider "shining examples of…

At the time of the initial signing off the Rome Statute, Ukraine was a puppet state of Russia.

Since then, it has been on track to ratify the statute, recently affirming ICC jurisdiction to prosecute war crimes going as far back as the Euromaiden protests.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/02/ukraine-countries-reques...

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#315

Post by mandmandam »

pmoriarty wrote: post #264
mandmandam wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up to 8 billion present human lives, trillions or qaudrillions of potential human lives, and uncountable animal and plant lives. That's not exaggeration. Those are the stakes America is fucking around with by provoking the world like this and spooking the shit out of everyone.

It's not just America either... plenty of blame to go around. Power corrupts.

That's fair.

I would say though that in terms of the ratio between self praise and evil shit, there's a very clear winner way, way out in front.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#316

Post by cwkoss »

sneak wrote: post #280
cwkoss wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is the violence itself that solves the problem. I think it is the broader public realizing that "the CIA is engaging in acts so egregious my countrymen think execution is morally justified" that solves the problem, by forcing them to look for more moderate solutions and prioritize their implementation. I think 'never advocate for violence, even against more-violent greater evils' is a flawed rule bec…

I don't think you persuade the segment of the population that thinks that execution is morally unjustifiable by advocating for morally justified execution, but I'm no sociologist.

That's fair, I think other readers watching us debate whether CIA torture is evil enough that state execution is justified probably has a similar effect to my goals with advocating for it in public discussion... so thanks! Hopefully we've shifted a few minds towards "something needs to be done".

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#317

Post by cjbenedikt »

xyzzyz wrote: post #223
teakettle42 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Due process” is an individual US constitutional right to have access to our established legal procedures and rules prior to any deprivation of “life, liberty, or property”. I don’t see a due process violation in your link — just an example of how abdicating sovereign judicial authority can go wrong, as is the case with diplomatic immunity.

There was no "diplomatic immunity" issue relevant in that case. The perpetrator had no diplomatic immunity. She was only immune to prosecution because she ran away, and the US government denied extradition because it would be "troubling".

So much for due process in terms of extradition.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#318

Post by the_af »

hguant wrote: post #254
black_puppydog wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's why the US is increasingly seen as nothing more than a bully on the international stage. And to the point of the root comment, this will fall back on everyone in the US, you included.

I think, while this might have been the perception up until a few weeks ago, the invasion of Ukraine has shown the world what a true "bully" on the international stage looks like. There will always be cloistered individuals who think that anyone who isn't "pure" (for an increasingly variable definition of pure) is evil. That opinion is absolutely fine to have until reality strikes. The bubble of people who post on HN…

> The bubble of people who post on HN have been living in that cloister for the last decade or so, not realizing what goes on in the world.

Maybe some, but some of us in Latin America live in countries that at times have been subjected to US "influence" which resulted in subverting governments, abductions and torture. All in the name of freedom and fighting communism, which I guess makes it alright!

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#319

Post by tehwebguy »

anon_2022 wrote: post #245

Making the post as anon. I fully support the CIA to use torture even on US Citizens. If you're caught planning a terror attack or something similar that could cause mass loss of life, torture is a reasonable last resort to extract information from a suspect

The shame you feel for your opinion is a good start

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#320

Post by the_af »

ericmay wrote: post #197
pydry wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I dont think its impossible for a supranational entity backed by national militaries to act as a policeman rather than a mafia don. I just think that America is uniquely incapable of that. An EU led super power emerging after an American collapse might successfully step into that role. Probably not, but still possible.

> Oh, I dont think its impossible for a supranational entity backed by national militaries to act as a policeman rather than a mafia don. One person's policeman is another's mafia don. The international system as it exists, exists how you're describing it (supranational entity backed by national militaries) - it's just that the absence of the premier and effective military (America) makes that infeasible. So railing…

> being anti-America

Wait, what? I'm American... South American, to be precise. The US as world police doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, given their track record in our part of the Americas.

Whether this world policing is a "US liberal" or a "US right-wing" thing is of no interest to me. Both camps will call anyone who disagrees anti-American, anyway. (I think right now it's more of a "US liberal" thing but it used to be "US center-right/neocon". US politics are confusing!).

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