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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#151

Post by tiahura »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #87
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

Worse? Intel obtaibed at the torture extreme is simply not reliable. The cultural need - at the elites' level - to "break" the opposition is disturbing. And yes,ultimately this manifests in the broader culture. If for no other reason, the elites have become normalized to The Culture of Violence and see no reason to change course. Their power remains safe and intact.

Intel obtaibed at the torture extreme is simply not reliable.

Besides a few anecdotes, how many torture debriefings have you read and then cross checked?

Unless you’re in the industry, how could you possibly think you have an informed opinion on methods of intelligence gathering?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#152

Post by Loughla »

arcbyte wrote: post #146
Loughla wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't the republicans stop him at every turn, no matter what, anyway? Seems like he didn't really have anything to lose, so why not just do it?

There was an opportunity for Obama to have a much more effective and bipartisan presidency early on. It wouldn't have been a friendly relationship, but certainly a more effective government. He rammed Obamacare through Congress very early in his presidency and that pretty much removed his ability to do anything else in his first term.

That doesn't really answer my question.

Also, and I'm really not trying to be snarky, that statement sounds like something the child of abusive parents would say. If only Obama had been quiet, they would've left him alone. That's a no-win situation, I think.

Either way, it didn't really answer my questions.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#153

Post by mandmandam »

pmoriarty wrote: post #80
spacechild1 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the same. But maybe they just do (have) not care. History has shown that the US can do all sorts of horrendous things and nothing ever seems to happen...

"History has shown that the US can do all sorts of horrendous things and nothing ever seems to happen..." Well, nothing except: 1 - make lots of enemies 2 - make the world a more dangerous place 3 - lose the moral high ground and the respect of people/countries who might have otherwise been friends These things have consequences... measured in American lives (which are, sadly, the only kind of lives some people care…

Up to 8 billion present human lives, trillions or qaudrillions of potential human lives, and uncountable animal and plant lives.

That's not exaggeration. Those are the stakes America is fucking around with by provoking the world like this and spooking the shit out of everyone.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#154

Post by afshin »

naoqj wrote: post #150
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

>Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. How does having "the moral high ground" help the lower class of a society?

The answer to this is related to the answer of: "would you prefer to be in the lower class of Norwegian society or the lower class of nearby Belarussian society?"

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#155

Post by throwaway894345 »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #140
throwaway894345 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that one side's lies and unjustified violence are better than the other side's is why the wars and hypocrisy continue. First of all, I'm advocating for American behavior to remain beyond reproach and I favor prosecuting the American officials who misled the American public in the case of the Iraq war. That said, I heartily reject the binary categorization between unblemished and blemished countries because…

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc. are what happens when we start putting a rating on lies, justice, murder, etc. Yes, these are the extremes. But that doesn't justify a slippery slope that isn't - yet? - one of these historical extremes. "Oh. Our lies and murders aren't as bad as {insert culture panic button here}" continue to work well for the elites, not so much so for the rest of us. How about we put a cultural / sociopol…

You're framing this as a dichotomy between slippery slopes. We must either pretend that all sins are equivalent and thus give cover to the worst sins or we must use the fact that some sins are worse than others to allow the "better" side to backslide. The obvious alternative is to hold all parties account according to the severity of their guilt, and demand that everyone does better. In other words, the guilt of one party doesn't absolve the other or (as children understand) "two wrongs don't make a right".

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#156

Post by e12e »

shkkmo wrote: post #91
torturedreading wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is pretty much all you need to know about torture. When torture or "EIT" is used for a source of intelligence, using that sole point of data as proof is fraught with peril. Dropping JDAMs on a building fingered solely by a detainee is sure to get random bystanders killed. Running a raid, similarly, might well be a trap. However, when one corroborates this with other sources of data, it is a "valid" technique.…

My understanding is that rapport building techniques have a much better success rate.

Yeah, even nazi Germany realized that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#157

Post by naoqj »

afshin wrote: post #154
naoqj wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. How does having "the moral high ground" help the lower class of a society?

The answer to this is related to the answer of: "would you prefer to be in the lower class of Norwegian society or the lower class of nearby Belarussian society?"

Do you think the difference in the standard of life is because of "having the moral ground"?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#158

Post by pydry »

bashinator wrote: post #106
krisoft wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So how can we look at Russia and say they are committing war crimes if the US blatantly does things like this. I don't understand what you are saying here. More than one group can commit war crimes.

I believe what the grandparent post actually meant was, "This undermines our moral posture in accusing Russia of war crimes." Which is true.

It also makes us more threatening which in turn is more likely to provoke a violent response to our mere presence.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#159

Post by nonrandomstring »

deutschew wrote: post #128
nonrandomstring wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There never was any moral high ground, the establishment were successful at making people FEEL as such. I understand what you're trying to say with respect to dirty hands, and not wilfully misunderstanding you. But, wrong. There _was_ a moral high ground. It subsisted within the group of people you claim were duped. Those were and always will be the people who count, who hold the _normative_ values of a society. Wh…

What I'm saying is pick up a history book or even read through various things America was involved in all over the world. It is anything BUT moral and yes the average American has no say in the matter in the decision making. So perhaps that absolves them of the sins of the state but nevertheless the blind masses continue to push away these ugly things under the closet with various political labels and in doing so the…

I understand you.

May I humbly give you links to some reading which I hope will benefit your views and arguments in the future. It pertains to a specific phrase I used above.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dirty-hands/

https://www.emerald.com/insight/publication/doi/10.1108/s152...

respects

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#160

Post by pydry »

teakettle42 wrote: post #139
mywacaday wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to see how the US can claim a moral high ground on anything when it continues to not be a member of the ICC and is even occasionally actively hostile towards individual judges and member countries by threatening sanctions.

I’m glad that my US constitutional rights cannot be abrogated by a supranational judicial system.

I'm not especially thrilled with the idea that this can grant you a license to murder me in my sleep with impunity simply because Im not a US citizen.

The alternative of supernational courts dispensing justice at an international level is essentially loose federations of gangs doing the same thing.

And, when a kid in a crips neighborhood tries to join the bloods...

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