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Don't ask to ask, just ask (2019)

dontasktoask.com

161–170 of 391 posts

Re: Don't ask to ask, just ask (2019)

#161
I really feel like none of you work in an environment where people ignore inconvenient requests, which must be really nice, link your /careers page, whatever, but -- if you lead with the thing they don't want to deal with, you will be ignored more. I am intentionally spending the time to go through a round of SYN-ACK. That puts the social pressure of an ongoing conversation on the recipient to explicitly decline instead of reading the thing they don't want to hear and just ignoring it. This is more efficient than for me to try getting answers from four people, all of whom ignore messages and hope it will be someone else's problem.

(I am also guessing this is less of an issue when you're not trying to coordinate across timezones)

Re: Don't ask to ask, just ask (2019)

#162
On one hand, this is a valuable rule that can improve communication.

On the other hand, if any one has the time to share this, they have time to say "Hey, what's up?". For a site about improving communication, it has a surprisingly irritating and condescending tone.

Re: Don't ask to ask, just ask (2019)

#163
post #136

It is just part of a human-centric session initiation protocol. A major reason people do it is to query presence-at-keyboard before continuing. Maybe the matter is time sensitive, maybe they don't want to disclose something immediately without setting context, finding something out first, whatever.

Right: I think everyone gets that; but it is that very concept that is irksome, as the entire reason to use chat apps for many people is to NOT have presence-at-keyboard EVER. Like, the answer to "are you there?" is, an hour later, "no", followed by immediately task switching away from the window again. The "no" is honest: I wasn't there when you asked, and I also am not really there now either. It is akin to trying to obtain synchronous communication with someone by sending them a letter with "hey, you there?" and a month later getting back "yo! what's up!"... you didn't really achieve much other than "this communication mechanism worked once"; and, if you want to do that in a way that makes it clear you aren't trying to establish synchronous communication--•I am sorry, but I am new to chat: are you actually seeing this message?"--I am more OK playing along.

The goal here--and I think a better way to present it than just trying to say "don't say hello" or trying to point out that someone else is being rude (which is a subjective way of analyzing things that I think people should avoid without empathy)--is in some sense to teach people what asynchronous communication means and how to achieve it, as I honestly don't want to and kind of can't have synchronous communication with anyone whom I don't really really really care about at the level of "a close personal friend or loved one" (and then if you find that rude, I guess you will have to deal with synchronously talking to someone else, at best my assistant, as I just really don't have time to synchronously talk with random people; but that's the problem: I know "hi; you there?" is a trap to try to make me feel bad for not staying synchronous once you pounce on my answer later).

Re: Don't ask to ask, just ask (2019)

#164

I don’t think people do this because they want to be polite. The ‘hello’ is basically the start of what is the human equivalent of the TCP three way handshake. - Hello (SYN) > Hi (ACK) - How are you doing ? (SYN, ACK) Basically, they are trying to set up a synchronous channel over what is essentially an asynchronous medium. This is even more annoying than just slowing down the answer, they are demanding your undivide…

The worst thing though is when the SYN,ACK has 10 minutes of latency on it and the receiving end is blocked waiting for it.

It's a bit like going up to someone in the office and saying "Hi", they reply "What's up" and then the first person just stares at you...

Somehow I always fall for it when really I should just go off and make a cup of tea.

Re: Don't ask to ask, just ask (2019)

#165

Yes, this, 100%. I find it very annoying to get a notification popping up on my screen for you to say "hi" when obviously you want to ask me for something...and then you don't ask or say anything else until I stop what I'm doing and say "Hi! What's up?" back to you. After another 5-10 minutes of waiting for you to see me ask "what's up?" and then type out what is up, which we all knew you were going to end up doing a…

Just because the chat app shows that you are logged in, it does not mean that you are immediately available to chat. If I want to leave a message for someone with a response accepted at their convenience, then I send an email. If I reach out via chat, it's because I expect a realtime exchange. Again, because the little green dot appears next to user's name does not mean they are not deep in the tall grass and readily available to chat. To me, chat is just like walking up to someone at the cubicle to have a conversation. If I walk up to someone and notice they are deep in it, I don't bother them. Chat doesn't allow for that kind of signaling, so a "got a sec?" isn't a wast of time as it allows for them to not reply indicating "no" without stopping to type "no".

Re: Don't ask to ask, just ask (2019)

#166
46 points by dfboyd on Jan 23, 2021 | parent | context | prev | next [–] | on: Please don't say just hello in chat (2013)

I am the original author of the document this document was based on. It was an internal Wiki page at Google written when I was an SRE. After I wrote the original page, someone put up an internal shortlink at "go/nohello". After I left Google, someone took the Wiki page content and [illegally, since it was Google confidential, simply from being on the internal Wiki], and put it up on the net at "nohello.com".

Re: Don't ask to ask, just ask (2019)

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the 'engineer' side of the equation. But often I need async interaction with various others. So I just combine it all in one message: Hey, Jo! I just have a quick question for when you have a moment: And leave it. I'll ping Jo again at a time interval depending on urgency - sometime this sprint? I'll remind about the message in a couple days. Need it today? I indicate that when I ask, and about 4hrs later I'll po…

This is my pet peeve. You don't have a quick question. If you did, you'd just ask it. By asking to ask, you've doubled my required response effort. Please just ask questions. Pinging someone about a mysterious question that you'll reveal later is annoying. It certainly doesn't go on my list of things to do re: "Sometime later this sprint be sure to get back to that person who won't tell me what they want from me". It…

I read GP's comment as saying "Hey I have a quick question for you: INSERT QUESTION HERE", so it sounds like you are in agreement actually.

Re: Don't ask to ask, just ask (2019)

#169
post #129

As much as I think this should just be common sense, when I see this URL in someone's status message/bio on a work messaging platform, it strikes me as condescending and unprofessional.

What are your thoughts on individuals publishing READMEs on how best to interact with them? Similar sort of thing or sufficiently different?

I have no seen that yet. Is that prevalent somewhere? Seems like a lot of effort to talk to someone as sibling says.

Re: Don't ask to ask, just ask (2019)

#170

I often will say "you there?" or "you busy?" This means I don't have a single question, it means I want to have a synchronous conversation. There are lots of reasons for the latter. This is what I would prefer people do with me as well, and if I am busy, I feel like I can ignore the message until I have a few minutes to talk (often with voice/phone) I say this as someone working from home, thousands of miles from mos…

This still seems like an example where you could directly state your request and avoid some unnecessary ceremony. When I want to have a synchronous conversation, I don't send "you there?", I send "Could you call me when you have a minute? I want to chat about ."
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