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Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

reuters.com

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Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#381

Post by simiones »

mschuster91 wrote: post #175
simiones wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That language is an explicit part of Israel - the Declaration of Independence enshrines the idea that Israel is, first and foremost, a Jewish state. In more recent times, the nature of the state is often referred to as "Jewish and democratic". It is also enshrined in the basic laws of Israel (Israel doesn't have a constitution). This entire concept has a dedicated article on Wikipedia [0]. It's a pretty fun read for…

> This is, in my opinion, the main reason why Israel has never attempted to annex the Palestinian territories. The Arab majority (or near majority today) that would form in the population would seriously challenge the idea of a Jewish and democratic state - they would be forced to stop recognizing Arabs' right to vote and/or hold office. For what it's worth Israel could go the federation route - basically, have three…

Even if they did that, as long as they allow universal voting, they run the risk of an Arabic party leading the federal government.

Also, a federal government that is not in charge of diplomatic relationships is no government at all.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#382

Post by walkhour »

wbsss4412 wrote: post #360
walkhour wrote: post #334

Most comments here are attacking the decision, or just quoting the decision, and following it up by a "wtf". Just being shocked is not an argument. Jews are or have been persecuted in all middle eastern countries. What would happen if they were a minority in a democratic state in the Middle East? Why would it be different than in the other democracies in the Middle East? Laws like these lower the probability of Jews…

Advocates for Israel like to use other middle eastern states to excuse all sorts of behavior. The problem is that they try to have their cake and eat it to with these comparisons. “Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East!” -but the systematically control the non Jewish population. Israel wants to display itself as the image of a society that has the same values as western states, while practicing the s…

Sure, but these are the arguments used to justify a Western nation not being able to exist in the Middle East because of having too inclusive values.

What I'm looking for is an argument of why the two probabilities that I mentioned are small enough so that persecution is not a concern. If persecution is a concern, why should Israel care about being inconsistent? Being inconsistent in how Israel displays itself would then be at the back of the line of their concerns.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#384

Post by spywaregorilla »

vkou wrote: post #379
chmod600 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your source: "Israeli politicians say the law is both an essential security measure to prevent Palestinian terror attacks and a means of preserving a Jewish majority in Israel." Maybe it's more of an immigration policy than a security policy?

It's a policy of apartheid, which is motivated by both immigration and security. Fortunately, as we have learned over the past few weeks, sanctions are an effective means of pushback against archaic 20-th century statesmanship.

Unfortunately, geopolitics all but guarantee this will never happen so long as Israel is a strong western ally

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#386

Post by twofornone »

aaomidi wrote: post #222
dotancohen wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Ah yes, the Arab hivemind sub plot to take over your country with little brown babies overtaking precious white ones. I, too, get concerned of the explosion of disgusting brown people that threatens my beautiful non Arabic speaking country. /s if not clear.

No post body was provided.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#388

Post by walkhour »

pessimizer wrote: post #357
walkhour wrote: post #334

Most comments here are attacking the decision, or just quoting the decision, and following it up by a "wtf". Just being shocked is not an argument. Jews are or have been persecuted in all middle eastern countries. What would happen if they were a minority in a democratic state in the Middle East? Why would it be different than in the other democracies in the Middle East? Laws like these lower the probability of Jews…

> Just being shocked is not an argument. Most people don't feel the need to argue against openly legislated apartheid; we can just be shocked. If I see a car crash, I don't argue with it either. Everybody understands that laws like this are essential for building up an ethnostate, but most people don't think that's a defense.

Don't get me wrong, I'm shocked as well, I just think that's not enough, you have to at least be able to justify why the two probabilities that I mentioned before are small, which in my opinion, is a hard thing to do.

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#389

Post by throw0101a »

tablespoon wrote: post #351
emptyparadise wrote: post #5

>Proponents say the law helps ensure Israel's security and maintains its "Jewish character". What the fuck?

>> Proponents say the law helps ensure Israel's security and maintains its "Jewish character". > What the fuck? Israel was founded as a state for the Jewish people, so they could have some political self-determination, which given their history, doesn't seem like a such bad thing. It would entirely subvert that if it became a state controlled by other kinds of people, like all other states in the world . Let's say Mu…

> Let's say Muslim Arabs become the majority in Israel, wouldn't it then become the kind of place that the ancestors of the Jewish Israelis fled from (for good reason)?

The Jews didn't exactly jump from Judea as opposed to getting pushed:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish–Roman_wars

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_Palaestina

Certainly there was a diaspora before that, but the (Second) Temple was still a large focus, but that ended as well:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE)

Certainly there were always Jews (and Christians, and later Muslims) in that geographic area, but to say that Jews particularly 'deserve' exclusive governing of that area may be stretching it given the two thousand years of history since they last had 'exclusivity' to it.

> IMHO the comparisons of Israel to apartheid break down because the motivations are different. IIRC, the South African whites wanted to maintain dominance over a big subject population, the Jewish Israelis just want a state for themselves.

A reasonable desire. The Poles also wanted a state for themselves for a while, and finally got one (after a messy twentieth century), but would it be okay for them to say "no blacks or Arabs" in their naturalization/citizenship laws? (Versus the perhaps 'simpler' idea of "must be fluent in Polish and be familiar with Polish culture/history".)

Palestinians also want a state of their own, but Israel is (according to some) squatting on their land:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

Don't both have a right (?) to exist? Why does Israel deny to others what it wants for itself?

Re: Israel passes law denying naturalization to Palestinian spouses

#390

Post by vkou »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #384
vkou wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a policy of apartheid, which is motivated by both immigration and security. Fortunately, as we have learned over the past few weeks, sanctions are an effective means of pushback against archaic 20-th century statesmanship.

Unfortunately, geopolitics all but guarantee this will never happen so long as Israel is a strong western ally

Does it have to be? Does it operate a gas pipeline that heats Germany, or something? Is it an irreplaceable source of titanium? A major wheat exporter? Is the West planning to use it as a launchpad for a war of aggression in the region?
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