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Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

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Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#261

Well yes. Artillery bombardment is THE Russian military doctrine. Any uncertainty on the headline would mean assuming Russia had developed some unusual qualms on the subject. And why would they? It seems to me that among the moral outrage people kind of lost touch with reality. There is some basic facts, take it here from the German public broadcast >According to its president, Russia is seeking the "denazification"…

> There can be no NATO intervention without triggering WW3. Any sanctions left would be oil which the economy of most western countries likely cant stomach. I wonder how you picture NATO intervention without WW3, could you explain? IMO Nato intervention means a military confrontation between NATO and Russian forces. Also I don't agree with your second point. 'Any sanctions left' here means actually more than the enti…

>I wonder how you picture NATO intervention without WW3, could you explain? IMO Nato intervention means a military confrontation between NATO and Russian forces.

I meant its not possible. You cant have a military confrontation between NATO and Russian forces in Ukraine without triggering ww3. So the hope that NATO might intervene is badly misplaced in my opinion.

>Yes, it would also hurt the European economy, but surely many magnitudes less than a WW3.

Yes, another bad wording, thank you. Add an "and any...". I think the oil sanctions are unlikely solely because the European economies wont be able to handle the impact.

And with no NATO intervention (due to ww3) and no sanctions on oil(due to economic impact), i dont see much margin for actions left. Am i missing something?

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#262
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not suggesting NATO saying "sure let's talk about membership" and Russia INVADING a country is the same but different "magnitude"? It's up to Ukraine if they want to pursue NATO membership or any other agreement with any country or organization. Russia has no say. It's not a negotiation between NATO and Russia. Russia isn't at the table. They can pine for old USSR glory all they want but nobody else wants that…

> Russia has no say. It's not a negotiation between NATO and Russia. Russia isn't at the table Well that attitude brought us to that point. Russia thinks that it should be at the table and it can prove it. > And the way Putin's been killing journalists and dissidents (in the UK no less), raiding the treasury, annexing Crimea, and other nonsense, I don't see them being invited to many negotiations in the future. Turke…

> Russia thinks that it should be at the table and it can prove it.

And it will leave with a bloody face.

> Or maybe that story when Saudi Prince DISMEMBERED that journalist in embassy and everyone were okay with it?

What have you been smoking? That blew up in MBS's face and lost billions in investments.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#263
post #159
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "expansion of the west"? Estonia et al joined NATO of their own accord, and if sovereignty means anything then they had the right to. (You could certainly make a case about Iraq or Afghanistan, where the west did install a new government by force, but I don't think Russia has been talking about those) > The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time Ha…

> What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? Lead the pro-NATO coup in the closest Russia's neighbourgs, armed these countries with heavy weapons, encouraged them to fight Russia and promised to support this fight, then leave and watch Russians and Ukrainians kill each other at the expense of Europe. It didn't started in 2022 or 2014, it escalated for the last 30 years.

If there was a coup it was an attempted coup by Russia to control Ukraine's government to go against the popular will. Even Yanokovych was open to EU until Putin turned him against. Putin's attempt to directly dictate Ukraine policy worked on the president but the rest of the country did not bend so the leadership fled.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, how many cities have to be destroyed before they sign? And they will be destroyed if they don’t fold. There is exactly one way of ending this, only difference is how much Ukraine is willing to pay in blood and resources before they sign.

This is the language of bullies. "Do this or we'll hurt you." "You did that, so now do this, or we'll hurt you." And then they hurt you anyways.

Yeah. The "deal" being offered gives me this "The Mouth of Sauron at the Black Gate" vibe.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly recommend looking into the history of Ukraine over the last 20-30 years in this case. The West/EU/NATO doesn’t court. And they’re extremely careful about generating the impression or sending a message that they’re actively pulling countries into their “sphere of influence”. For the process of inclusion to work there has to be undeniable proof that it is a democratic process that shows that the people of that…

Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for some security guarantees didn't they?

Extremely difficult to judge those times through today’s lens because in the 1990’s the people running Ukraine were people like Leonid Kuchma - the same that ran Ukraine under the USSR. My understanding is that at that time everyone was confused, and the U.S. was mainly concerned over who exactly is to have the weapons that remained after the dissolution of the USSR (this was during the first war in Iraq which was fought against the U.S. with U.S. weapons and training). I don’t think anyone in power in Russia or Ukraine was really concerned about that aspect, and they were willing to trade all of those weapons for economic security, stability etc. A Russian-Ukrainian conflict would also have been absurd and unfathomable at the time.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#266

Well yes. Artillery bombardment is THE Russian military doctrine. Any uncertainty on the headline would mean assuming Russia had developed some unusual qualms on the subject. And why would they? It seems to me that among the moral outrage people kind of lost touch with reality. There is some basic facts, take it here from the German public broadcast >According to its president, Russia is seeking the "denazification"…

I disagree. There can and should be a Nato intervention. Maybe Ww3 is what follows next but that doesnt mean it will be a nuclear desaster. If we can send stingers we can send jets. If we can send jets we can send pilots. Step be step we can increase pressure. Putin is a strategic player, he is cold blooded not red headed.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#267
post #168
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "expansion of the west"? Estonia et al joined NATO of their own accord, and if sovereignty means anything then they had the right to. (You could certainly make a case about Iraq or Afghanistan, where the west did install a new government by force, but I don't think Russia has been talking about those) > The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time Ha…

> What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia? by the way West destroyed Iraq, there is a hell now. West destroyed Lybia, there is a hell now. West destroyed Afghanistan, there is a hell now. West destroyed Serbia, ask Serbians, what do they think of NATO There is peace in Crimea, there is a peace in South Ossetia. Nobody is shooting. The life is poor, mostly because of the west san…

> West destroyed Serbia, ask Serbians, what do they think of NATO

Ask Croatians and Bosnians what they think about Serbs. Basically Serbia tried to do to them, exactly what Russia is doing now to Ukraine. Btw Serbia is starting to do pretty well comparing to when they were under USSR influence.

> There is peace in Crimea, there is a peace in South Ossetia. Nobody is shooting.

Nobody was shooting in entire Ukraine, before Russia decided to start stealing their country.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#268

Well yes. Artillery bombardment is THE Russian military doctrine. Any uncertainty on the headline would mean assuming Russia had developed some unusual qualms on the subject. And why would they? It seems to me that among the moral outrage people kind of lost touch with reality. There is some basic facts, take it here from the German public broadcast >According to its president, Russia is seeking the "denazification"…

I disagree. There can and should be a Nato intervention. Maybe Ww3 is what follows next but that doesnt mean it will be a nuclear desaster. If we can send stingers we can send jets. If we can send jets we can send pilots. Step be step we can increase pressure. Putin is a strategic player, he is cold blooded not red headed.

You could however also be wrong and the reason for triggering the start of the end of the species. So maybe dont?

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they will win. Their morale is very low, OSINT is full of abandoned vehicles. At this point, they are losing equipment much faster than they can produce new one, no one can churn out a dozen new military helicopters in 2 weeks. This alone will be a major source of attrition. Meanwhile, the Ukrainians are getting very efficient weapons from the West and they are being replenished constantly. If Russia co…

Depends to which sources you're listening to. Reddit and EU mainstream media are filled with constant propaganda that Ukraine is holding up and Russia is suffering from sanctions and loosing the war, but if you listen to actual military experts from the likes of Mi6 and USA agencies, they are skeptical of Ukraine being able to win this and western sanctions barely changing anything in favor of the Ukraine.

> ...that Ukraine is holding up and Russia is suffering from sanctions and loosing the war, but if you listen to actual military experts from the likes of Mi6 and USA agencies, they are skeptical of Ukraine being able to win this and western sanctions barely changing anything in favor of the Ukraine.

Both of those things can be true at the same time.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#270
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is from 2008: > NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. [1] [1] Item 23: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

This is completely out of context. In 2010 Yanukovych won the vote and flat out declared that he would be halting all efforts to join the EU/NATO etc. This is what eventually triggered the EuroMaidan protests. It's also not so difficult to imagine that this was a response within a larger picture of two-way communication at the time. All the above says is 'welcoming aspirations' - basically 'we're happy that you want…

Hm, it's almost impossible to know how to properly contextualise the current story in Ukraine - the history is so complex. However, that's not my understanding of events - which I'm summarising below as neutrally as I can.

This position from Nato (linked above) set in motion a chain of events starting with the Georgia war a few months later. In order to join Nato, Georgia needed to regularise Abkhazia and South Ossetia as part of Georgia, and Saakashvili understood that this declaration indicated that if he were able to do so, then Georgia would be able to join Nato (some say this was told to him explicitly by US officials, but there's no hard evidence of this that I'm aware of).

In parallel, Russia understood the importance of maintaining the status quo in Abkhazia and South Ossetia to prevent Georgian accession to Nato.

Reports about the start of the war indicate South Ossetian separatists held a flame close to a powder keg, and Georgia exploded. Whether Russia was involved or not at this stage is unclear, but what happened next was a small Georgian armed force entered South Ossetia (and later Abkhazia) to impose Georgian control. Russia saw the potential implications of this, and fought back, ostensibly 'protecting Russian citizens', but in actuality, more likely to be trying to maintain the instability in these breakaway regions.

After just under 2 weeks of fighting, Russia rolled up to Tbilisi, and having achieved both their stated objective ('protecting Russian citizens') and the likely true reason for the invasion (stopping Georgia controlling South Ossetia and Abkhazia), agreed to a ceasefire, and eventually withdrew.

So, how does this impact on Ukraine, and what context does this add?

Ukraine leased a port in Sevastopol (Crimea) to the Russians, on which the contract was due to expire in 2017. As a result of the conflict in Georgia, Ukraine indicated that they would not want to renew this contract. Given Russia's size, it's quite surprising how little access they have to the seas, because most of their coastline is to the north, where only Murmansk is able to operate year round. As a result, Sevastopol is a critical strategic location for Russia, and so I suspect that this is when planning began in earnest for military intervention by Russia in Crimea. However, this also marked a turn away from Russia and towards the EU.

Now, a couple of years after the Georgia conflict, Ukraine elected a new president, Viktor Yanukovich. Yanukovich was not a new face in Ukrainian politics. He had previously won a presidential election in 2004, which was later annulled due to alleged fraud, and he lost in the re-run (the peaceful 'Orange Revolution').

Although there were fears about fraud in the 2010 election, it seems that these did not materialise, and Yanukovich was the legitimate winner of the election (although questions still remain about his funding and spending). Yulia Tymoshenko, his main rival, is quoted as saying that she and her party will never recognise Yanukovich as the legitimately elected president of Ukraine. In 2011, Tymoshenko was found guilty of embezzlement and sent to prison.

At this point, it's important to understand that more than 45% of the vote share went to Tymoshenko. Tymoshenko was seen as a left-leaning, euro-centric candidate, versus Yanukovich who wanted to dine at both tables. Almost half of the country felt as though the 'wrong side' had won the election, and their leader had been jailed (whether Tymoshenko was a political prisoner or not is a completely different essay).

In late 2012, the EU indicated that Ukraine needed to take several significant steps to improve various parts of their economy, judicial system, electoral system, and other items, which became an action plan in early 2013. Indications from the EU were that if Ukraine implemented these measures, they would be invited to sign an association agreement in late 2013, and Yanukovich was working actively to get these measures implemented.

However, additionally, the EU required Tymoshenko to be allowed to receive medical treatment outside of Ukraine. Further, a loan from the IMF which would help Ukraine meet the EU's financial criteria was predicated on Ukraine increasing gas bills by 40%.

This was not accepted by the Ukrainian parliament, and many in Ukraine felt as though the EU kept moving the goal posts deliberately, and were not negotiating in good faith. Ultimately, Yanukovich said that he wanted to explore other options, rather than joining the EU, and this is what triggered the Euromaidan protests.

Consequently, Yanukovich was ousted, and Ukraine continued to pursue EU association, eventually signing the agreement in March 2014. Yanukovich's period of active opposition to the EU was limited to winter 2013-2014 (although there are arguments he may not have been working in good faith before this, it's hard to tell definitively).

This was almost immediately followed by the annexation of Crimea by Russia, as they (probably correctly) felt as though the new administration in Ukraine were much more anti-Russia than previous administrations. It's hard to tell exactly why things have come to a head recently, but all of this is part of a story which is at least 20 years old, without even looking back through the 90s towards the collapse of the Soviet Union.

One thing that is fairly certain: Putin was likely not looking to be drawn into a protracted war, and was hoping for a similar outcome to Georgia: achieve political objectives (likely regime change) and then withdraw quickly. Given that this is no longer an option, and he has not achieved any of his objectives, I agree with the premise that the most likely next step is the 'Groznification' of Kyiv, unless Putin can meet his goals through diplomacy.

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