Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 310 posts

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#211

Post by chockchocschoir »

neetfreek wrote: post #176
chockchocschoir wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, this is not something that just happened recently, nor just in Japan (nor just by Russia). Airspace of multiple nations gets violated multiple times per year by multiple nations, all the time. Although the timing makes it a bit suspected, I'm sure it's just a general test of "readiness", which happens often.

Also recently four Russian jets violated Swedish airspace during joint Finnish-Swedish exercises. From the linked article, described by the Swedish airforce as '"particularly serious" given the current situation, [who] called the Russian actions unprofessional and irresponsible.' https://yle.fi/news/3-12341483

As the sibling comment mentions, this happens constantly so I don't think it's as big news as some make it out to be. It's almost a weekly occurrence at this point.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#212

Post by ceejayoz »

belter wrote: post #38
ceejayoz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they aren’t. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_Joint_Declarat... From its text: > The state of war between the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Japan shall cease on the date on which this Declaration enters into force and peace, friendship and good-neighbourly relations between them shall be restored. The article claims it was never signed. This appears to be entirely made up. There are photos…

From the same reference you provided, a declaration was made and it was about regulation of trade and other activities.My Japanese and Russian are a bit rusty. Original is below but do you have French or English version? https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%20263/v2... You reference says "...no peace treaty has yet been signed, and the islands remain under Russian administration" Edit: Ok. Per this ref…

There's a translation at https://worldjpn.grips.ac.jp/documents/texts/docs/19561019.D.... It seems pretty clear on the end of the war, even if there were plans to have additional agreements later that fell through.

Both parties agreed to end the war, and signed the agreement. It doesn't have to have the words "Peace Treaty" in the text to be one.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#213

Post by ceejayoz »

robbedpeter wrote: post #40
robbedpeter wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>President Vladimir Putin on the next day.[11] However, the dispute persists,[12][13][14][15] no peace treaty has yet been signed, and the islands remain under Russian administration Yes they are. Japan never signed.

Ahh. This was a declaration, mutually signed, that agreed to negotiations for a treaty. No treaty was ever signed, this declaration was.

The declaration states, once signed, that it ends the war.

That there were to be further negotiations after that didn't conclude doesn't invalidate that agreement.

Text is quite short, and clear: https://worldjpn.grips.ac.jp/documents/texts/docs/19561019.D...

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#214

Post by russianshill »

FpUser wrote: post #133
yardie wrote: post #6

With so much of their military tied up in the boondoggle on their western front I guess now would be the perfect time to pounce on disputed territory. Knowing your enemy distracted.

>" I guess now would be the perfect time to pounce on disputed territory" And get a nuke in response?

No post body was provided.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#215

Post by peoplefromibiza »

fractallyte wrote: post #72
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about USA or UK then? Or Belgium or France or Spain or Holland for that matter... I love Japanese people, they paid and suffered much more than deserved for their past mistakes, contrary to many other empires of the past.

These women would emphatically disagree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women It might not seem like much compared to other world events, but it means everything to the people concerned. No real punishment to the perpetrators, and a very late, reluctant, and muted acknowledgement from the Japanese government.

What about this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_and_pro...

Did Kubrick invent "me love you long time" or was it a thing in Vietnam?

Two atomic bombs dropped on civilians and their capital city burned down to hashes with hundreds of thousand of casualties in few hours doesn't sound as "No real punishment" to me...

YMMV

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#216

Post by ceejayoz »

robbedpeter wrote: post #36
ceejayoz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they aren’t. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_Joint_Declarat... From its text: > The state of war between the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Japan shall cease on the date on which this Declaration enters into force and peace, friendship and good-neighbourly relations between them shall be restored. The article claims it was never signed. This appears to be entirely made up. There are photos…

>>President Vladimir Putin on the next day.[11] However, the dispute persists,[12][13][14][15] no peace treaty has yet been signed, and the islands remain under Russian administration Yes they are. Japan never signed.

Japan and the USSR both signed the Declaration. Its text formally ends the war. Again, there are photographs of the signing by both parties: https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/russi...

Full text: https://worldjpn.grips.ac.jp/documents/texts/docs/19561019.D...

It agrees to negotiate on various trade and territorial issues, which apparently fell through, but that doesn't invalidate its terms.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#217

Post by chockchocschoir »

belter wrote: post #200
chockchocschoir wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, this is not something that just happened recently, nor just in Japan (nor just by Russia). Airspace of multiple nations gets violated multiple times per year by multiple nations, all the time. Although the timing makes it a bit suspected, I'm sure it's just a general test of "readiness", which happens often.

It would seem Russia has more than 300 of these incidents just in 2019. "NATO says Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times in 2019" https://taskandpurpose.com/news/russian-aircraft-violate-eur... However I cannot recall any incidents of the type: "French Mirages violate Russian Airspace" "Swedish Grippens's buzz Russian Cruiser..." or "UK Jets cross into Russian airspace" Not saying they do not h…

> Not saying they do not happen, just that I can't recall any. Do you have some examples?

You're gonna have to search for news from those countries instead. Try "нарушение воздушного пространства россии" on yandex, or "侵犯中国领空的行为" on baidu. English news hardly ever write about English-speaking countries violating other countries airspace, while the opposite is true too, you won't find news about Russians violating other countries airspace in Russian news.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#218

Post by inglor_cz »

nullifidian wrote: post #191
inglor_cz wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can, if they prefer to, but in order to achieve lasting peace in the Black Sea, Crimea should IMHO be demilitarized. Having Russian military bases on their south flank is a major security problem for Ukraine.

On what basis are you fantasizing about demilitarization of a nuclear state? How would that work? I hate Putin as much as the next person, but nothing will happen to the Russia proper -- they'll start throwing nukes, tactical first, then strategic.

Peace treaties in the past contained all sorts of demilitarization clauses. It is not unprecedented.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#219

Post by ceejayoz »

belter wrote: post #200
chockchocschoir wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, this is not something that just happened recently, nor just in Japan (nor just by Russia). Airspace of multiple nations gets violated multiple times per year by multiple nations, all the time. Although the timing makes it a bit suspected, I'm sure it's just a general test of "readiness", which happens often.

It would seem Russia has more than 300 of these incidents just in 2019. "NATO says Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times in 2019" https://taskandpurpose.com/news/russian-aircraft-violate-eur... However I cannot recall any incidents of the type: "French Mirages violate Russian Airspace" "Swedish Grippens's buzz Russian Cruiser..." or "UK Jets cross into Russian airspace" Not saying they do not h…

> Not saying they do not happen, just that I can't recall any. Do you have some examples?

The U-2 and SR-71 flew deep into Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident

We repeatedly enter Russia's ADIZ (https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/26/politics/russian-fighter-jets...) and China's (https://breakingdefense.com/2013/11/chinas-new-defense-zone-...) and explicitly do not acknowledge other nations' ADIZs for military aircraft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zon...)

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#220

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

random_upvoter wrote: post #201

The current situation is already a catastrophe as it is. The best possible outcome at this time is that this war is ended as soon as possible even when this means handing a few victory points to Russia. It is the only way at lot less Ukrainians will die and then I'm just ignoring the potential outcome of further escalation. Nothing the West is doing right now is working towards this outcome. We still seem to believe…

> best possible outcome at this time is that this war is ended as soon as possible even when this means handing a few victory points to Russia

why for the love of god would the West support Russia and not the wishes of the Ukrainian people?

I don't understand this reasoning and have even heard it among some of my ultra-religious friends or extended family members. None of them has any skin in the game other than steep gas prices and lot of fear, so they just parrot "war is bad please stap!". But none of them contributes how that would impact the people. If you force them to comment it always turns out to be a trolley-problem that they have pulled the lever on for others: with silly arguments like we must do it because "claiming 100K dead people is still better than 10MM".

And this is where this hypothesis gets hairy because that decision is easier to make for others but a lot harder to say: "I and my partner with 2 toddlers will volunteer to be in the pool of those who die."

I'm only speaking for myself but there isn't a thing in the world I wouldn't do if I'd have to defend my own family even that means wiping out half of humanity. If I'd think very hard about I'd even wipe out part of my own blood to ensure survival of my own offspring. Luckily this is only a hypothetical scenario. Sure I'd never recover from it emotionally or psychologically but it is what I would do. This is obviously flippant and hypothetical but no better way to illustrate the hypocrisy at play here.

Edit: The only part I agree is the rest of the world will be massively hurt by it too. Egypt, Tunesia, Yemen, etc are totally screwed as it's the biggest consumer of UA/RU grain https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/07/w...

Post reply on HN