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Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

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Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#161

Post by vogre »

imnotlost wrote: post #158
alephnan wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NATO membership is entirely voluntary. Yes and Russia doesn't deny that either. The request was for NATO to stop allowing countries like Ukraine to volunteer. Is that unfair ? Yes, it is a bully move. But that was the bully's request, and the West's stance is, effectively, we don't negotiate with terrorists. It's the attitude of: whatever, we do whatever we want. That's also fair, but don't be surprised why Russia…

You're not suggesting NATO saying "sure let's talk about membership" and Russia INVADING a country is the same but different "magnitude"? It's up to Ukraine if they want to pursue NATO membership or any other agreement with any country or organization. Russia has no say. It's not a negotiation between NATO and Russia. Russia isn't at the table. They can pine for old USSR glory all they want but nobody else wants that…

> Russia has no say. It's not a negotiation between NATO and Russia. Russia isn't at the table

Well that attitude brought us to that point. Russia thinks that it should be at the table and it can prove it.

> And the way Putin's been killing journalists and dissidents (in the UK no less), raiding the treasury, annexing Crimea, and other nonsense, I don't see them being invited to many negotiations in the future.

Turkey is NATO member, do you know anything about Erdogan deeds? Or maybe that story when Saudi Prince DISMEMBERED that journalist in embassy and everyone were okay with it?

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#162

Post by oblio »

MichaelRazum wrote: post #155
oblio wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Palestinians are obviously under attack, let's not kid ourselves. To this day I don't know where I stand in this conflict, since I understand many of the subtleties of the conflict. But that part is clear, Palestine > under attack. Israely is knowingly "salamy tactic-ing" Palestine. They're slowly chipping away at their regions. They're destroying Palestine through administrative abuse. It's like slowly being cru…

So you deny that Hamas a terrorist organization send rockets at civilians? They got their territory. Why send rockets? The reason it is rational for them. They need to be in power and get the funding through destruction. By the way some more example where the hate comes from: https://www.jns.org/eu-unpublished-report-finds-palestinian-...

I'm not denying anything.

I'm just saying that if you were a member of a population that's being squeezed out of their land, day by day, in a country that at best, if you try to integrate, treats you like a second hand citizen, you can't say for sure what your reaction would be.

You could try to pretend it would be a peaceful reaction, but you can't say for sure. Nobody can.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#163

Post by oblio »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #156
oblio wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if it kills you and not if it's infamy. Especially since he has kids, he'll be leaving them an extra bad legacy, even in his own country.

Putin's kids will be set for life financially, and can live a super safe and comfy life in neutral countries like Switzerland, New Zeeland or Austria.

If he wins. If he's deposed, they might be dead.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#165

Post by inglor_cz »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #149
inglor_cz wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Infrastructure can be rebuilt with a new Marshall plan later. Ukrainians have very good weapons from the West and are getting more. Putin can't hold such a huge country against them. Destroyed infrastructure works against the occupiers, too. Sometimes even more, because the locals have some local knowledge, e.g. which water sources deep in the forest are safe to drink.

>Infrastructure can be rebuilt with a new Marshall plan later. The Marshall plan types work when there is guaranteed political and economical stability in the countries where there are implemented, and it worked in destroyed countries like West Germany and Japan because those countries had guaranteed stability and protection from internal and external threats post-WW2 by the US military bases hosted in those countrie…

"as long as Russia can steamroll Ukraine whenever they feel like it"

They don't seem to be pulling it off now. Their capabilites will only degrade once the sanctions bite fully.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#166

Post by oblio »

jl6 wrote: post #75

I can’t understand how Putin would be able to pay for the reconstruction costs of the immense damage he’s causing, leading me to assume he intends to dismember the country, take the southern and eastern parts that he wants, and hand the ruin over to the west for us to foot the bill.

The most valuable thing in a country are people.

South Korea was poorer than North Korea in 1950.

I'm willing to bet $100 that if Russia only takes some regions from Ukraine and does not touch the rest in any way, by 2050 the remaining parts of Ukraine will be at least 2x as prosperous as the parts of Ukraine taken over by Russia and probably also at least 2x as prosperous as Russia itself.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#167

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #165
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Infrastructure can be rebuilt with a new Marshall plan later. The Marshall plan types work when there is guaranteed political and economical stability in the countries where there are implemented, and it worked in destroyed countries like West Germany and Japan because those countries had guaranteed stability and protection from internal and external threats post-WW2 by the US military bases hosted in those countrie…

"as long as Russia can steamroll Ukraine whenever they feel like it" They don't seem to be pulling it off now. Their capabilites will only degrade once the sanctions bite fully.

>They don't seem to be pulling it off now. Their capabilites will only degrade once the sanctions bite fully.

I'd like Ukraine to win, but if you listen to the former head of Mi6 and US military experts, they don't give Ukraine much chance of actually winning, as they're severely outgunned and outnumbered vs Russia, despite aid from the west. Despite taking heavy losses, Russia's use of tried and tested WW2 style of encircle the big cities and slowly pummle them into submission with artilerie, and endless cannon fodder plus ruthless trained killers form Chechnya, seems to be working for them slowly but surely.

And the sanctions are mostly affecting the average Russian who can't buy iPhones, Ikea furniture anymore or use Paypal, but it has no effect on Putin's war machine or on his grasp of political power in Russia. Banned western goods will still come into Russia through Serbia and Kazakhstan anyway, as they're not sanctioned countries and have liberal trade policies with Russia.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#168

Post by vogre »

lmm wrote: post #144
alephnan wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't is cynical to call it expansion of the West while no-one except Russia expanded beyond borders of Russia? It is just expansion of Russia. Nope, no one is denying Russia's expansion, nor China or the next superpower. The only hypocrisy would be recognizing Russia's expansion and not the West. The conservative argument is that the world should be kept as is, and whoever makes the first move is to blame for brea…

What "expansion of the west"? Estonia et al joined NATO of their own accord, and if sovereignty means anything then they had the right to. (You could certainly make a case about Iraq or Afghanistan, where the west did install a new government by force, but I don't think Russia has been talking about those) > The West thinks the Ukrainian invasion is the first move of any party, and its done nothing this whole time Ha…

> What has "the west" done that's remotely comparable to Crimea or South Ossetia?

by the way

West destroyed Iraq, there is a hell now.

West destroyed Lybia, there is a hell now.

West destroyed Afghanistan, there is a hell now.

West destroyed Serbia, ask Serbians, what do they think of NATO

There is peace in Crimea, there is a peace in South Ossetia. Nobody is shooting. The life is poor, mostly because of the west sanctions, but people are safe.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#169

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

oblio wrote: post #163
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin's kids will be set for life financially, and can live a super safe and comfy life in neutral countries like Switzerland, New Zeeland or Austria.

If he wins. If he's deposed, they might be dead.

I doubt his kids would be killed in Austria/Switzerland/New Zeeland.

Plus, the former head of Mi6 warned not to try and corner Putin, since if he were to be personally severely threatened, he wouldn't hesitate to turn to using nuclear weapons and take the whole world down with him if he were to ever be ousted form power by the west.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#170

Post by vkou »

MichaelRazum wrote: post #157
vkou wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First the Palestinians aren't under attack, they can just stop firing rockets No, they are simply under permanent military occupation , with no end in sight, no path to enfranchisement. At best, they are living in an apartheid state. At worst, they had a war declared on them, and they aren't even permitted to surrender. If some third party invaded the United States, and kettled Americans to live in isolated enclave…

An apartheid state. That is clearly wrong. An Arab party is in the government. Even they said that they don't see Israel as an apartheid state. Most of them are living much much better than in any neighbor country.

Some arabs in Israel are permitted to vote, just like how some African Americans living in the north had the right to vote pre-CRA/VRA. Pre-CRA/VRA America was also an apartheid state.

Most do not have that right, despite being born there, and having no other home country.

That some of them are enfranchised is a fig leaf over an apartheid state.

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