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Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

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Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#101

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

scyzoryk_xyz wrote: post #56
rlt wrote: post #24

I don’t understand all the history and nuance of the situation, but I feel incredibly guilty on behalf of the west for courting Ukraine for admission to NATO / EU, but leaving them in a very precarious and vulnerable position in the meantime. It’s just an impossible and sad situation.

I highly recommend looking into the history of Ukraine over the last 20-30 years in this case. The West/EU/NATO doesn’t court. And they’re extremely careful about generating the impression or sending a message that they’re actively pulling countries into their “sphere of influence”. For the process of inclusion to work there has to be undeniable proof that it is a democratic process that shows that the people of that…

Greece and Turkey demonstrate that the bar needs to be high.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#102

Post by inglor_cz »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #66
tablespoon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? They are. I think the count is up to two million or something. > Russia is obviously going to win. That's not so obvious. For instance: the US failed to win against much weaker opponents than the Ukrainians. > The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic…

>That's not so obvious. For instance: the US failed to win against much weaker opponents than the Ukrainians. Those were opponents in a tribalistic society practicing guerilla warfare hiding across deserts spreading thousands of miles. Ukraine is a developed country with infrastructure that's well documented and known by their enemy. If they take out their vital infrastructure like hospitals, water, power, schools, t…

Infrastructure can be rebuilt with a new Marshall plan later.

Ukrainians have very good weapons from the West and are getting more. Putin can't hold such a huge country against them.

Destroyed infrastructure works against the occupiers, too. Sometimes even more, because the locals have some local knowledge, e.g. which water sources deep in the forest are safe to drink.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#103

Post by pintxo »

scyzoryk_xyz wrote: post #56
rlt wrote: post #24

I don’t understand all the history and nuance of the situation, but I feel incredibly guilty on behalf of the west for courting Ukraine for admission to NATO / EU, but leaving them in a very precarious and vulnerable position in the meantime. It’s just an impossible and sad situation.

I highly recommend looking into the history of Ukraine over the last 20-30 years in this case. The West/EU/NATO doesn’t court. And they’re extremely careful about generating the impression or sending a message that they’re actively pulling countries into their “sphere of influence”. For the process of inclusion to work there has to be undeniable proof that it is a democratic process that shows that the people of that…

This is from 2008:

> NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. [1]

[1] Item 23: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#104

Post by hef19898 »

totesraunch wrote: post #91
hef19898 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing you should really take away from this ongoing propaganda / information war is to never blindly trust what seems to be "evidence". Especially if that evidence is confirming your own biases and preferences. Because that willingness to believe information is what makes propaganda so powerfull.

You're right, it's peaceful in Ukraine, no civilians are dying. The Russian 'special military operarion' is going off without a hitch and civilians are welcoming their saviors. My mistake.

One more comment and I stop, because it's getting pointless. I never doubted that Ukrainian civilians are dying, why would I? Nor did I ever defend Putin's actions or the Russian invasion, because again, why would I? I do try to provide some context so. Because propaganda, even if it is for the right cause (whatever that is in general so) and at least partially true still is, well, propaganda. And I don't like propaganda. Ukraine is using information to great effect, and they have every right to do so, because they need and deserve every help they can get. I truly believe this. This doesn't mean so that I believe everything that is published, even from reliable and vetted sources, right now. Because the fog of war, even if it's not outright disinformation, is way to thick to actually judge information in a reliable manner.

What can be said is that war in general is ugly. So a lot of shit and war crimes are being committed and will continue to be committed. All the more reason for political leaders world wide to find a quick, peaceful solution to this mess. One that doesn't give any stretch of land to Russia.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#105

Post by oblio »

zpeti wrote: post #97
neuronic wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most economic models need to stop assuming that the typical actor is rational. Putin is clearly not objectively rational, at best subjectively rational within the realms of his ideology (unite the ethnically Russian people). Add to that miscommunication within all sectors of government just to please your superiors and that's how you arrive at the, sorry, shit tier decision making surrounding this entire war. Anyone…

Is wanting to put your name in the history books not objectively rational?

Not if it kills you and not if it's infamy.

Especially since he has kids, he'll be leaving them an extra bad legacy, even in his own country.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#106

Post by morsch »

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #50
curiousgal wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? Russia is obviously going to win. It's the same with Palestenians, they obviously have not and will not win against Israel. The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic?

The women and children are leaving. There are four of them in our flat (grandmother, mother, two daughters) here in the Czech Republic. The men are staying and fighting. The men who were in our country have gone back to fight. Fuck Putin

Most men are not permitted to leave.

https://visitukraine.today/de/blog/102/exceptions-when-a-man...

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#107

Post by oblio »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #66
tablespoon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? They are. I think the count is up to two million or something. > Russia is obviously going to win. That's not so obvious. For instance: the US failed to win against much weaker opponents than the Ukrainians. > The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic…

>That's not so obvious. For instance: the US failed to win against much weaker opponents than the Ukrainians. Those were opponents in a tribalistic society practicing guerilla warfare hiding across deserts spreading thousands of miles. Ukraine is a developed country with infrastructure that's well documented and known by their enemy. If they take out their vital infrastructure like hospitals, water, power, schools, t…

> Those were opponents in a tribalistic society practicing guerilla warfare hiding across deserts spreading thousands of miles.

> Ukraine is a developed country with infrastructure that's well documented and known by their enemy.

A developed country is 1 bombing campaign away from becoming a tribalistic society practicing guerilla warfare...

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#108

Post by oblio »

MichaelRazum wrote: post #79
curiousgal wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? Russia is obviously going to win. It's the same with Palestenians, they obviously have not and will not win against Israel. The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic?

Don't think the logic is the same. First the Palestinians aren't under attack, they can just stop firing rockets. Second I think there are a lot of people who profit from a cold/warm war, especially there.

The Palestinians are obviously under attack, let's not kid ourselves.

To this day I don't know where I stand in this conflict, since I understand many of the subtleties of the conflict.

But that part is clear, Palestine > under attack.

Israely is knowingly "salamy tactic-ing" Palestine. They're slowly chipping away at their regions. They're destroying Palestine through administrative abuse.

It's like slowly being crushed by one of those car compactors.

I have no idea what the correct reactions in this situation is.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#109

Post by vkou »

MichaelRazum wrote: post #79
curiousgal wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? Russia is obviously going to win. It's the same with Palestenians, they obviously have not and will not win against Israel. The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic?

Don't think the logic is the same. First the Palestinians aren't under attack, they can just stop firing rockets. Second I think there are a lot of people who profit from a cold/warm war, especially there.

> First the Palestinians aren't under attack, they can just stop firing rockets

No, they are simply under permanent military occupation, with no end in sight, no path to enfranchisement. At best, they are living in an apartheid state. At worst, they had a war declared on them, and they aren't even permitted to surrender.

If some third party invaded the United States, and kettled Americans to live in isolated enclaves and ghettos, with no freedom of movement, national sovereignty, or pathway to assimilation into the occupier's new nation, that occupier might be subject to the occasional rock and rocket attack, too.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#110

Post by tonyedgecombe »

alephnan wrote: post #85
lmm wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well not posting troops in Ukraine doesn't seem to have stopped Ukraine getting invaded does it? So it seems that was empty rhetoric.

The red line was the expansion of the West. Putting troops in Ukraine is one way of satisfying that. The encroachment of NATO was another. Whether that is true or not, it would have given more weight to Russia/Putin’s argument than stuff about Nazis.

The thing is defence spending in Europe has plummeted since the fall of the Soviet Union. The threat from the West was never a reasonable justification for invading Ukraine.
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