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Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

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Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#241

Post by NhanH »

trhway wrote: post #162
RustyBucket wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how you step on a path of a genocide ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide )

Genocide and ethnic cleansing is already in full swing. Too late for "step on a path". As a Russian immigrant in US, i support kicking out from US or any other country any Russian who wouldn't condemn in straight clear words Putin's fascist regime and the genocide it conducts in Ukraine. Anything less is just a support of what is going on. For any public figure it is doubly so. Grischuk didn't even use the word "war"…

> Grischuk didn't even use the word "war" in order to not have issues with Russian government.

He said he didn’t use the word “war” to avoid being censored, so that the Russian media can quote him directly.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#242

Post by goto11 »

plandis wrote: post #228
goto11 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of the ban is to weaken and undermine the Putin regime. Of course it is unfortunate for the players not getting to play a chess match, but if this ban (along with all the other economic and cultural sanctions) shorten the war by just a day, surely that sacrifice would be well worth it.

Perhaps I’m missing something but I really don’t see _how_ banning chess players shortens a war that those same chess players have no control over.

There is no way to hit Putin and his war chest directly. The intent of the sanctions is to indirectly weaken him and his power structure and undermine his public support. The cultural sanctions are certainly the mildest, the economic sanctions are going to hit the average Russian a lot harder. All of the sanctions work together to send a clear message.

Will it work? We don't know. Sanctions does not have a good track record of being effective, but on the other hand such a massive package of sanctions have been tried before.

Of course the effect of any single sanction seem negligible. Does it stop the war to cancel a chess match? Of course not. Does it stop the war to seize some billionaires Yacht? Probably not. But the combined force of all the sanctions hopefully have an effect.

Some say that popular support does not matter because Putin is a dictator. However Putin himself clearly believe popular support is important, otherwise why the need for the massive propaganda and silencing dissenting voices?

When taking about the fairness of the sanctions, realize that a "fair and proportional response" according to international law would be to literally bomb and shell Russians cities.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#243

Post by cutemonster »

jstx1 wrote: post #133
lordnacho wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. There's no way around it, we all already know where they are from, regardless of what they think of the war.

> Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. Yeah because they're from Russia. I just don't see how "people will think" is enough of a reason to ban them from playing an event. (1) Some deranged person running Russia decided to invade Ukraine, kill innocent people and ruin millions of lives. (2) A chess organization in Norway bans a player because they were born in the same…

I wonder if this will also push some people closer to Russia and Putin -- if they're not welcome in Europe, then, what's left for them?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#244

Post by cutemonster »

lordnacho wrote: post #238
throw10920 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Citation needed. If I see someone playing chess, or any game for that matter, then I assume they represent the flag that they're playing under is what the represent. If I see someone playing under a non-Russian flag, it doesn't matter how Russian their name sounds - I don't…

You gotta be kidding me. The winter Olympics just ended. Who did you think Valieva was skating for? Herself? There's a huge team behind each competitor and they're based around nations. What about the ice hockey team? Bunch of neutrals who happened to have a history of playing together, having grown up in Russia, and got to the final? Totally disingenuous to not call them the Russian team, and nobody thought otherwis…

To me, chess is primarily an individual game, and I was mildly surprised that so many here think about it as a country thing. Magnus Carlsen the individual, not Norway, is best in the world. Norway is just one mildly interesting data point about him. In my mind.

In the Olympics -- yes then I understand, then it's one player per country. So disallow, then. But there's so many other chess competitions.

Comparing with ice hockey doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#245

Post by veganhouseDJ »

somenameforme wrote: post #60

This is getting really stupid. Anytime there is some major event we always work to try to ensure that people appreciate there is a difference between the people of a country and the bad actors of a country - even when those bad actors are the government. But now because it's our favorite geopolitical enemy, everything goes out the window. Imagine if the victims of our wars (or their partners) were more influential an…

We also should be considering that there will be this giant country with a giant military after Putin is gone.

We seem to have no concept right now that there is a level of suffering and alienation we can impose on the average Russian that will cause a large chunk to become highly radicalized going forward. Who are those people going to want as a leader then? It seems like so many right now are living in a fantasy world that the Russian people will have some kind of French Revolution because of sanctions, get rid of Putin and by magic some Western friendly Russian government will emerge.

It is like that same thinking that went into hitting Germans with crippling reparations for WW1. In retrospect, maybe that wasn't the best idea..

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#246

Post by cutemonster »

goto11 wrote: post #242
plandis wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I’m missing something but I really don’t see _how_ banning chess players shortens a war that those same chess players have no control over.

There is no way to hit Putin and his war chest directly. The intent of the sanctions is to indirectly weaken him and his power structure and undermine his public support. The cultural sanctions are certainly the mildest, the economic sanctions are going to hit the average Russian a lot harder. All of the sanctions work together to send a clear message. Will it work? We don't know. Sanctions does not have a good track…

> weaken him and his power structure and undermine his public support

A problem is, these things can also make him stronger? And increase pubic support.

If people start getting "bullied" because they happened to be born in Russia, then maybe some of them will start disliking Europe, and think "Putin not so bad after all".

What if you threw stones through someone's window, because they were born in Russia? Do you think that makes Putin weaker or stronger

Not saying I know what to do, or that I have the answers.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#247

Post by goto11 »

cutemonster wrote: post #246
goto11 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to hit Putin and his war chest directly. The intent of the sanctions is to indirectly weaken him and his power structure and undermine his public support. The cultural sanctions are certainly the mildest, the economic sanctions are going to hit the average Russian a lot harder. All of the sanctions work together to send a clear message. Will it work? We don't know. Sanctions does not have a good track…

> weaken him and his power structure and undermine his public support A problem is, these things can also make him stronger? And increase pubic support. If people start getting "bullied" because they happened to be born in Russia, then maybe some of them will start disliking Europe, and think "Putin not so bad after all". What if you threw stones through someone's window, because they were born in Russia? Do you thin…

Putin only got stronger and bolder after the mild and ineffectual international response to the annexation of Crimea. So you are basally saying, if the West does nothing, Putin gets stronger, if the West strike back against Russia, Putin also gets stronger. So what do you suggest could possibly work?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#248

Post by veganhouseDJ »

Miner49er wrote: post #68
pbourke wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. What you say is correct and ethical, in my view. Putin and the Russian government are to blame, not random Russian citizens.

I believe the goal of sanctions like this is to make the people mad at their leaders. So you sanction Russian citizens in the hope it'll help motivate them to create change. Not sure it could work with Russia, but maybe?

I don't understand how anyone thinks this can work when the one opposition leader has been poisoned and put in jail.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#249

Post by lionkor »

sandworm101 wrote: post #12
jstx1 wrote: post #4

Not sure why the title is about Grischuk specifically, Norway Chess banned all Russian players. Which sucks given that many of these players have spoken up against what Russia is doing. Seems like they're being penalized unnecessarily.

The country is being punished. Countries are made up of people. In all likelihood no Russian will be untouched by these sanctions. The secondary motivation is that other players might drop out in protest. Look at what just happened to the Paralympics. The plan from on high was to keep the Russian team. It looks like it was complaints from the other athletes complaining that reversed decision.

Once Putin is gone, if there actually is some revolution, everyone in Russia has learned to have the deepest, most passionate hate towards the west and their undifferentiated discrimination.

You are looking at removing Putin, who will, if democratically voted for, be replaced by someone even more extremist. Stop giving the working Russian people a reason to have the west. Give them hope, show them what life can be like, dont beat them down and scream at them.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#250

Post by lionkor »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #127

Russian nationals and teams have been removed from FIFA, IHL, and many other competitions. It isn't fair, but it isn't fair that Ukraine has had its sovereignty violated by an unprovoked invasion. It is intrinsically biased to vet individuals based on their personal political beliefs, that seems like it would be worse. So the alternatives are to allow Russian nationals / national teams or to not allow them. These are…

It wasn't an unprovoked invasion, and rarely any invasion is. I dont support it at all, but I want to point out that this was an avoidable and certainly provoked war.
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