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Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

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Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#61

Post by themodelplumber »

The Russian diplomatic corps and information operations teams are taking advantage of the emotional signaling power of the word "cancel" to attempt to manipulate the American right, with whom the word resonates as their world seems to unfairly change around them.

If you want to be taken seriously as a nuanced thinker, rather than a sketchy what-abouter trying to yank people around, I wouldn't use that word.

Prediction: https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/1498441260499017733

Outcome 1: https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1499041366696992772

Outcome 2: https://twitter.com/PaulSonne/status/1499421918629404681

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#62

Post by harshreality »

agency wrote: post #37
harshreality wrote: post #20

This initially may seem like unproductive, mistargeted overreaction. However, consider that if Russians can't do what they want to do, maybe they'll focus more efforts on fixing their country so it stops the invasion and doesn't do something like this ever again. It may not work, but every Russian needs to be thinking about that, with priority over their jobs and hobbies. Making things painful for them is one way to…

Imagine if Americans were held to the same standard with respect to the American invasion and occupation of Iraq.

I'm not going to defend America's military adventurism, but do you really see no difference between a limited military campaign against a brutal dictator (and yes, partially over control of oil) vs a campaign to take over a bordering, more-democratic country for mythological ethic reasons, including by shelling cities?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#63

Post by elliekelly »

agency wrote: post #37
harshreality wrote: post #20

This initially may seem like unproductive, mistargeted overreaction. However, consider that if Russians can't do what they want to do, maybe they'll focus more efforts on fixing their country so it stops the invasion and doesn't do something like this ever again. It may not work, but every Russian needs to be thinking about that, with priority over their jobs and hobbies. Making things painful for them is one way to…

Imagine if Americans were held to the same standard with respect to the American invasion and occupation of Iraq.

I was in high school when the US invaded Iraq and around that time I went skiing in Quebec with a friend. We spent the weekend in the city and, while exploring, accidentally got caught up in what felt like a pretty big protest against the American invasion of Iraq. Looking back it was actually a fairly small and very tame protest but I was just a kid and it was totally unexpected so it was scary. And it really changed my worldview. It was my very first time ever leaving the country and I hadn’t expected Canadians, of all people, to be “anti-American” in any way. It was also the first time it had occurred to me that what the US was doing could even possibly be wrong. The thought had not even crossed my mind.

It’s important to have a friend who will tell you when you’re being an asshole.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#64

Post by endisneigh »

harshreality wrote: post #62
agency wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if Americans were held to the same standard with respect to the American invasion and occupation of Iraq.

I'm not going to defend America's military adventurism, but do you really see no difference between a limited military campaign against a brutal dictator (and yes, partially over control of oil) vs a campaign to take over a bordering, more-democratic country for mythological ethic reasons, including by shelling cities?

Are you suggesting killing innocent people is somehow more righteous if a the area is not democratic?

Didn't the USA carpet bomb many places in the Middle East with drones?

Again, not to create a false equivalency but I believe the OPs point is that shouldn’t Americans be ostracized?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#65

Post by JohnTHaller »

themodelplumber wrote: post #61

The Russian diplomatic corps and information operations teams are taking advantage of the emotional signaling power of the word "cancel" to attempt to manipulate the American right, with whom the word resonates as their world seems to unfairly change around them. If you want to be taken seriously as a nuanced thinker, rather than a sketchy what-abouter trying to yank people around, I wouldn't use that word. Predictio…

To put it flippantly: Propagandists gonna propagandize.

Don't help propagandists.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#66

Post by ZoomZoomZoom »

harshreality wrote: post #20

This initially may seem like unproductive, mistargeted overreaction. However, consider that if Russians can't do what they want to do, maybe they'll focus more efforts on fixing their country so it stops the invasion and doesn't do something like this ever again. It may not work, but every Russian needs to be thinking about that, with priority over their jobs and hobbies. Making things painful for them is one way to…

I understand the intention, however, the majority of those broad-stroke sanctions hurt the most progressive and self-reliant citizens first, the current regime support is extremely low for those people already.

Putin's main support base will start to feel anything only in a few weeks, when the economy crashes and inflation starts reflecting on the base needs. Most of the "deep nation" have only internal passports (never travel abroad), work in a government-funded spheres of economy, use mostly state-sponsored sources of information. Sanctions will probably just reinforce the narrative of "the ruthless enemies are encircling the motherland and can't wait to rip it apart".

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#68

Post by Miner49er »

pbourke wrote: post #53
version_five wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed - I can't believe how quickly the "mainstream" had adopted a hatred basically of a whole people based on the actions of an autocratic leader that does not represent them, and where speaking out would almost certainly have very bad consequences. We should be doing everything we can to stop Putin from waging war, but casual hatred of a group is not helpful or appropriate, even if it's the obvious extension of al…

I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. What you say is correct and ethical, in my view. Putin and the Russian government are to blame, not random Russian citizens.

I believe the goal of sanctions like this is to make the people mad at their leaders. So you sanction Russian citizens in the hope it'll help motivate them to create change. Not sure it could work with Russia, but maybe?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#69

Post by [deleted] »

slg wrote: post #43

Sanctions are often universal rather than person specific. Grischuk isn't being banned for his specific political beliefs. He is being banned as an action against his country. Some of the ways we punish that country are by punishing its people. It doesn't mean the people receiving that punishment are guilty of anything, it is just the method of putting pressure on that country's government to reverse course. This is…

[deleted]

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#70

Post by harshreality »

endisneigh wrote: post #64
harshreality wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to defend America's military adventurism, but do you really see no difference between a limited military campaign against a brutal dictator (and yes, partially over control of oil) vs a campaign to take over a bordering, more-democratic country for mythological ethic reasons, including by shelling cities?

Are you suggesting killing innocent people is somehow more righteous if a the area is not democratic? Didn't the USA carpet bomb many places in the Middle East with drones? Again, not to create a false equivalency but I believe the OPs point is that shouldn’t Americans be ostracized?

Killing people isn't righteous. It is, however, more acceptable or tolerable depending on the context and military force and tactics used. Blame what you want, but what percentage of the UN and UN security council denounced American actions? What percentage denounce Russia's current actions?
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