Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube • Hacker News Board

Re: Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube

#171

Post by Nursie » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 1:35 AM UTC

avindroth wrote: post #149

JoshTriplett wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One might say that you bought a license to a game One might claim that, and that claim should be rejected.

Isn’t this how the market works? You don’t own the game - you own the game on the platform, for as long as it lasts. This is the base rule for console games. You kinda know the deal when you buy it.

> This is the base rule for console games.

Really not well established, no. You may "know the deal" but the idea that your ownership is time limited by the life of the platform is unlikely to hold up well in a legal setting, IMHO.

Re: Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube

#172

Post by tenuousemphasis » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 1:36 AM UTC

remram wrote: post #103

joenathanone wrote: post #27

I wouldn't have known about this if not for the take down, now I am interested in purchasing a Steam Deck.

You could always play on PC with the same emulator. If you want a handheld device to play Switch games, the Switch is lighter and cheaper (though I suppose you'll have to pay for the games).

There are orders of magnitude more games available for emulation than are playable on the Switch. Nintendo has really dropped the ball on making their back catalog available legitimately.

Re: Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube

#173

Post by Mezzie » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 1:37 AM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #131

jeroenhd wrote: post #2

Nothing new here. Nintendo hates emulation with a passion. It passionately hates ways people enjoy their devices and platforms in ways they didn't intent. It hates fan projects, it might even hate its fans. Nintendo has a long history of lying in legal documents like DMCAs to take content that doesn't please them down. To be a dedicated fan of Nintendo's franchises is to be a masochist. The Steam deck doesn't just th…

I'm all for emulating systems that don't exist anymore. But this commenter's level of naive entitlement is beyond obnoxious. A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist. Maybe you'd be happy about this. Plenty of people wouldn't. Switches are generally available and not that expensive. If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don'…

There is one strong argument for emulating current Nintendo (specifically Nintendo) hardware: Game and console preservation.

Nintendo has a long habit of stopping console support and games become harder or impossible to buy; waiting for a Nintendo console to reach end of life before emulating and dumping the games means that some games are going to be missed. Also, emulating currently supported consoles allows for things like archival records of system OSes to study how they changed over time. (Because in 100 years, some graduate student will study how 20th and 21st century video gaming companies handled security updates).

Re: Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube

#174

Post by Nursie » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 1:37 AM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #131

jeroenhd wrote: post #2

Nothing new here. Nintendo hates emulation with a passion. It passionately hates ways people enjoy their devices and platforms in ways they didn't intent. It hates fan projects, it might even hate its fans. Nintendo has a long history of lying in legal documents like DMCAs to take content that doesn't please them down. To be a dedicated fan of Nintendo's franchises is to be a masochist. The Steam deck doesn't just th…

I'm all for emulating systems that don't exist anymore. But this commenter's level of naive entitlement is beyond obnoxious. A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist. Maybe you'd be happy about this. Plenty of people wouldn't. Switches are generally available and not that expensive. If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don'…

> If you want to play Switch games, buy one

And when I've done my duty and bought one, and bought the games, am I allowed to tinker then?

I see what you're driving at, but there are a great number of advantages to emulation and system hacks even for those of us that buy our games.

My PSP, when properly hacked, didn't need disks as I could store all the games I owned on a memory card or two. They loaded faster, used less battery and I didn't have to carry the damn things around. Similarly I had a PS2 with a hard drive so I could have all the games available on a menu system, and with faster load times. Same story on the Wii.

The other way around, I would play my Wii games that I had bought on Dolphin, which generally could render them at a higher resolution to target the 1080p tv I had at the time, where the Wii itself was limited to 576p. I routinely emulate the megadrive/genesis on all sorts of platforms including those hacked consoles, so I can play Sonic, which I bought many years ago.

I don't think these actions are wrong, nor do I think they hurt Sony, Sega or Nintendo, unless we're getting into the territory of "you denied them money they could have had if you re-bought everything multiple times". Sure, and I could give them 100 bucks a month direct from my paycheck, but I'm not doing that either.

Re: Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube

#175

Post by maximus-decimus » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 1:39 AM UTC

jpambrun wrote: post #146

dolni wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" This is an awful rule to live by. There are very few things in the world that _everyone_ would actually do.

This is a well established philosophical concept referred as Kant universality laws. It is a good rule to live by. Makes it obvious that cutting in line is immoral because lines could not exist if everybody did it.

Then at the same time, is it immoral for me to have no kids because it means the extinction of the human race? Is it immoral for me to have 3 kids because it means exponential growth, overpopulation, famine and destruction of the Earth? If we follow the logic to its end, the only moral choice is for everyone to have not 1, not 3 but exactly 2 kids.

I feel like this "law" really fails to account that not everybody on Earth is the same person and won't do the same thing because they either don't want to or can't.

Not everybody will want to use an emulator (because they want to play online, have a deckable console, or whatever other reason) or be able to get one (because they don't have a powerful enough pc). And people using emulators might make additional publicity that might bring new consumers to Nintendo products.

Re: Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube

#176

Post by Mezzie » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 1:41 AM UTC

toastercat wrote: post #167

jmyeet wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for emulating systems that don't exist anymore. But this commenter's level of naive entitlement is beyond obnoxious. A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist. Maybe you'd be happy about this. Plenty of people wouldn't. Switches are generally available and not that expensive. If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don'…

> A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist. Maybe you'd be happy about this. Plenty of people wouldn't. Switches are generally available and not that expensive. If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don't Sorry, but what is "X"? Emulation? If everyone emulated Nintendo games, we don't really know that Nintendo would cease to…

> EDIT: By the way, a great reason to emulate Switch games is to experience them at higher resolutions and higher framerates. Thought you should know, not everyone does it to save a few bucks.

So if by "X" you meant "piracy", well, nice strawman, otherwise you're equivocating emulation with piracy, which is wrong.

Related to this, accessibility, particular for retro games. I'm visually impaired, it's easier for me to emulate GB games because have you played on a GBA screen recently? Likewise, since my MS gives me twitches, the ability to do things like save scum is nice when I'm replaying NES games. I own an NES and a GB along with the games. I'm not stealing anything; I'm preventing my disability from locking me out of my own belongings.

Re: Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube

#177

Post by Mezzie » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 1:43 AM UTC

avindroth wrote: post #145

jmyeet wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for emulating systems that don't exist anymore. But this commenter's level of naive entitlement is beyond obnoxious. A good rule to live by is to ask "what would happen if everyone did X?" In this case, Nintendo would cease to exist. Maybe you'd be happy about this. Plenty of people wouldn't. Switches are generally available and not that expensive. If you want to play Switch games, buy one. If you don't, don'…

People think theft is liberation, which is… a problematic notion. “Everybody should have rights to enjoy / read…”

> “Everybody should have rights to enjoy / read…”

Yes.

/Librarian

Re: Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube

#178

Post by Nursie » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 1:43 AM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #148

999900000999 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This completely encourages piracy of recently released software. You can't give me the archivist argument that there's no other ways to experience these games. Nintendo is not targeting the same market as the Steam Deck. The Steam Deck still looks too much like a prototype for me to want to buy it. A very large percentage of games available on Steam will simply not work on a steam deck. Nobody knows if it's even poss…

> It's as if someone posted "Here's how you get Netflix for free", and Netflix filed a DMCA request against it. You can't call Netflix the bad guy here. Likewise Nintendo isn't monopolizing an essential service, you can enjoy other content. You just don't have a right to enjoy theirs without paying the entry fee. Actually, taking the DMCA and Youtube policies out of the conversation for a moment—what is the legality…

> It's not illegal to share instructions on how to make a bomb, right?

Depends on the country, I think many countries have terrorism laws that this might contravene now. I would expect that to be illegal in the UK for a start, probably most of Europe.

Re: Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube

#179

Post by Nursie » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 1:50 AM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #159

shirro wrote: post #147

Nintendo have the right to protect their IP and revenue. They have made some iconic games and characters that I would argue are as culturely significant as anything made by Disney. I would like them to be able to keep funding creative people. However their revenues almost entirely comes from the new and not the old. Games don't go into syndication and get tv reruns. They are kept alive by the emulation community and…

> However their revenues almost entirely comes from the new and not the old. Games don't go into syndication and get tv reruns. They are kept alive by the emulation community and I would argue it builds support for Nintendo's IP rather than do them damage. Note that in this case, we're talking about a Switch emulator. > Playing on a PC is going to be a worse experience in almost every way. I mean, not necessarily. I…

> The only exception I can think of is the PS2; PCSX2 can play PS2 games directly from a standard optical drive

I'm not sure of anything else directly as easy, but both the PSP and Wii could be made to rip their own disks, with the appropriate firmware installed, and some PC DVD drives were apparently Wii-disc compatible, but not all.

As you say though, it's extra work even then. I think I would probably buy the game and then download from an internet source, if I wanted to emulate but stay honest.

Re: Nintendo is removing switch emulation videos on Steam Deck from YouTube

#180

Post by School-Cotton » Fri, Mar 04, 2022, 1:57 AM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #127

forgotmyoldacc wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it difficult to notice that you're in the minority here?

It's not acceptable to prohibit a use case because some people are using it for illicit purposes, assuming that all aren't. Game producers would like to claim that all such uses are fundamentally illicit. The point of my comment was to reject that claim, not to claim that the majority of users are licit. (There's a separate argument that I'd also make that all such uses should be entirely accepted, but that's an orth…

> It's not acceptable to prohibit a use case because some people are using it for illicit purposes, assuming that all aren't.

Sure it is. Try extending this argument to every other kind of business. Most shops, for example, don’t let you take whatever you want off the shelves and promise to mail them a check later. Even if many people would be honest, enough wouldn’t that it would make their business unsustainable (or at least substantially less profitable). Therefore, they almost universally prohibit this.

That’s just one example among many. The logical conclusion of your argument is that it’s unacceptable for any business not to extend unlimited trust to all their customers unconditionally.