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Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

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Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#51

Post by wincy »

nassimsoftware wrote: post #27

I'm new to From Soft games and decided to buy Elden Ring because it's a similar game to Zelda Breath of The Wild which I really liked. I was afraid that the game would be too difficult. After playing 17hrs, the game is indeed difficult but there are many things you can do in the game to make it easier for yourself (Which I did because I'm more interested in exploring the world than mastering the gameplay). For exampl…

I like that the extremely challenging bosses can be bypassed, but are still there for those who want it and I think frees FromSoftware to make some bosses even more challenging.

For example, there’s a spot where 2 of 3 major bosses have to be defeated. The third one is EXTREMELY difficult compared to the other two. Like, not even close. I didn’t have to beat it, having handily dispatched the other two, but I set a personal goal. I then proceeded to spend 4 hours the other night trying to beat it. I got frustrated, I got help from other players, but I just couldn’t progress.

Finally the multiplayer servers went down, and I didn’t want to quit. I started paying attention. I analyzed why I was dying, and adapted a three phase strategy for the different parts of the boss fight. First time, died, second time, died but got it to low health. Third time was the same, then finally the fourth time it all came together in harmony, and I beat the boss. The feeling I got from that was exquisite, like I had EARNED something, even if it’s just some game and mostly a waste of time.

It felt similar to when I used to raid in World of Warcraft, but without the 40+ hour a week commitment.

It’s been years since I’ve felt a sense of accomplishment anywhere close to that because of my professional career. Most of the projects I work on are pretty boring.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#52

Post by goldenkey »

xeromal wrote: post #50
goldenkey wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been wanting to make a pact with someone else so whoever is going to die first will be detonated in a spectacular firework. Rather go out with a bang than a wimper.

If space travel is cheap enough when I die, I'd like to be shot into the sun.

That sounds awesome. Like an immolating monk except by pure light/EMG itself :-) Count me in!

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#53

Post by autoexec »

makeitdouble wrote: post #37
Osmose wrote: post #34

I think Miyazaki's games are great and I enjoy them myself, but the continued (even in this article, somewhat) framing of accessibility features as ruining the artistic vision of hardship is a little disingenuous at this point. Many disabilities make games several times more difficult than they are for people without them, and a difficulty slider or increased stats help level the playing field so that the games can b…

To note, there are many other mechanisms to adjust the playing experience than a difficulty slider or an explicit "easy" mode. I think a lot of us prefer a more natural and "legit" integration of different paths into the gameplay. It requires more effort and creativity on the developer side, but it also allows players to move from laid back/easier playing to more demanding play in a seamless way. To put it in your te…

> To put it in your terms, I prefer games where the player chooses _in game_ what they are and what they aren't capable of

What are some examples of games that do this? I haven't played many recent titles, so the only examples of this I can think of are some games like skyrim that let you max out everything so you can play as any class you like and move between them at will or Final Fantasy/Pokemon where you can grind your way to victory if you're willing to spend the hours.

I'm pretty sure I've played a title or two that tried to automatically adjust the difficulty according to how well I'm playing, but I always resented it. It feels like punishing success and it's too easy to game by intentionally holding yourself back.

I think options/settings still have their place. There have been several times when I (as a relatively non-disabled person) would have loved an option to disable a time limit or lower the difficultly level of a boss fight and there are games I've started but never finished because I couldn't. Cheat codes have really fallen out of favor, but they had their place too.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#54

Post by idle_zealot »

nassimsoftware wrote: post #27

I'm new to From Soft games and decided to buy Elden Ring because it's a similar game to Zelda Breath of The Wild which I really liked. I was afraid that the game would be too difficult. After playing 17hrs, the game is indeed difficult but there are many things you can do in the game to make it easier for yourself (Which I did because I'm more interested in exploring the world than mastering the gameplay). For exampl…

> This is essentially the easy mode everyone wanted but the core souls fans.

This easy mode has been in every From game I’ve played. It’s the reason core fans don’t want the much-demanded difficulty settings.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#55

Post by idle_zealot »

autoexec wrote: post #53
makeitdouble wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To note, there are many other mechanisms to adjust the playing experience than a difficulty slider or an explicit "easy" mode. I think a lot of us prefer a more natural and "legit" integration of different paths into the gameplay. It requires more effort and creativity on the developer side, but it also allows players to move from laid back/easier playing to more demanding play in a seamless way. To put it in your te…

> To put it in your terms, I prefer games where the player chooses _in game_ what they are and what they aren't capable of What are some examples of games that do this? I haven't played many recent titles, so the only examples of this I can think of are some games like skyrim that let you max out everything so you can play as any class you like and move between them at will or Final Fantasy/Pokemon where you can grin…

> What are some examples of games that do this?

The Souls games, and Elden Ring. There are places you can go in-game to find powerful weapons and easily level up. If a boss is too hard you can go explore surrounding areas and come back when your character is more powerful. Or you can choose to persist and master the boss’s mechanics to beat it at your current strength. Each area in these games works like a puzzle with multiple solutions.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#56

Post by oscb »

uejfiweun wrote: post #12

I doubt that some New Yorker journalist can really appreciate the gravity of what Miyazaki has done to gaming. The man switched careers in his 30s and literally changed the face of video games, releasing one highly influential game after another. Yes, you die a lot in his games, and they are hard, but that isn't the point. The point is that the influences of Miyazaki games are now visible in almost every AAA game the…

You could try reading the article before assuming what the author will say. The author clearly is keen to Miyazaki's games and puts them into the context of the debate about game difficulty. Yet it justifies the author's intent. Give it a read.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#57

Post by umvi »

I just beat Sekiro last month and picked up Elden Ring this month. I think Miyazaki is a genius - FromSoft smashed it out of the park with this one, and I honestly had no idea how he could outdo himself after the masterpieces that were Dark Souls 3 and Sekiro.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#58

Post by vlunkr »

vsareto wrote: post #2

>I do feel apologetic toward anyone who feels there’s just too much to overcome in my games Psh, I ain't buying it. I think they found a niche and like sticking to it, and maybe like making folks salty. They make a ton of people happy with the difficulty, but nothing about these games are apologetic.

As other comments say, the difficulty has been oversold. I don't know what your experiences with these games are, but there are lots of forgiving aspects to them that wouldn't be there if they just wanted to make the hardest games on the market. Here's a few:

- every death refills your main healing items, so you can't run out

- you keep all the items you collect before you die

- you can recover lost experience points/currency by returning to the place where you died

- you can summon NPC or online co-op partners when you need. This trivializes most bosses.

- other players can leave messages in the game. Lots of them are tricks, but it almost guarantees that you won't miss any important items.

- they're RPGs. If you don't have enough health or whatever, you can level up to correct that.

These games definitely punish you when you make a mistake, and sometimes they are just janky, but if you invest the time it all starts to make sense.

Unfortunately, I think it's their own marketing department that really pushed the difficulty angle, maybe they're trying to back out of that now that they're not an underdog.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#59

Post by autoexec »

idle_zealot wrote: post #55
autoexec wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To put it in your terms, I prefer games where the player chooses _in game_ what they are and what they aren't capable of What are some examples of games that do this? I haven't played many recent titles, so the only examples of this I can think of are some games like skyrim that let you max out everything so you can play as any class you like and move between them at will or Final Fantasy/Pokemon where you can grin…

> What are some examples of games that do this? The Souls games, and Elden Ring. There are places you can go in-game to find powerful weapons and easily level up. If a boss is too hard you can go explore surrounding areas and come back when your character is more powerful. Or you can choose to persist and master the boss’s mechanics to beat it at your current strength. Each area in these games works like a puzzle wit…

Dark souls has been on my list of games to try for some time. Sounds like they went the route of the grind which I'm fine with as a compromise (in some games I even prefer to be over-leveled). I'm still trying to decide between playing on PC or console though. I know the PC port had issues, but there have been plenty of times when a mod or simple console command would have saved me from bugs if I were on PC instead of a console.

Re: Hidetaka Miyazaki sees death as a feature, not a bug

#60

Post by ShroudedNight »

DanHulton wrote: post #19
markus_zhang wrote: post #16

I heard about these gamed and watched a few hours of gameplay each. I was unconvinced and closed the YouTube tabs after it became too boring. I guess I have to play it to feel it? But most of the games I enjoy playing are fun to watch. Duke3d and Baldurs Gate are two examples. Can someone elaborate why Dark Soul is actually fun to play, and more importantly why sold for so many copies? I read other comments and the t…

Very simply, no other game series does the "mastery" thing so well. The game is both wide and deep, and even though there's superficially a leveling system, it won't save you if you can't actually play. This raises some accessability issues, definitely. I'd love to see Fromsoft games take that challenge on next. (Or another studio, there are plenty of great Souls-like games out there.) Especially as I'm getting older…

> This raises some accessability issues, definitely. I'd love to see Fromsoft games take that challenge on next.

> Especially as I'm getting older, I definitely feel like I have a lot more "knocking the rust off" to do...

I would definitely appreciate novel takes on accessible mastery. I likely [1] have visual memory (immediate + delayed), subtle but measurable visual motor difficulties, and ADHD:I. Having zeitgeist games feel so thoroughly inaccessible is alienating.

One thing that feels like it helps (no concrete data, placebos and all that...) is high refresh rates. My guess is that it frees my visual memory from being used for interpolation. Ironically, From Software seem almost antagonistic to providing this.

[1] Measured definitively ~15 years ago; who knows what's happened since then.

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