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Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

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Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#761

Post by ysamjo »

necovek wrote: post #440
ysamjo wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the list of Putin's demands, what should the West has conceded on??

Not necessarily Putin's demands, but there's talk of Russia asking to join NATO way-back-when: not sure if those are trustworthy, but I am pretty confident Russia would have no fear of NATO if it was not sent off, and was instead part of it. Also, recognizing independence for Russian-controlled areas of Ukraine would have helped with the current situation too.

> recognizing independence for Russian-controlled areas of Ukraine would have helped with the current situation too.

So what you're saying is that these states in question don't deserve the right to self-sovereignity. The people in the independent states wanted in NATO and not the other way around.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#762

Post by ysamjo »

watwut wrote: post #516
ysamjo wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add that the unspecifity of the threat was what kept Putin going. Consider what would have happened if "The West" handed Putin a detailed list of the sanctions that are in effect now A WEEK AGO. Lower costs and lower risks. That's why far-sighted politics are so important.

> Consider what would have happened if "The West" handed Putin a detailed list of the sanctions that are in effect now A WEEK AGO. Putin would say that is why he attacked Ukraine. His cheerleads would then blame Biden, claiming Putin had no choice.

Doesn't make sense to me. It's a simple If-This-Then-That logic. The sanctions only take place once he invades. If there's no invasion of course there are no sanctions.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#763

Post by indymike »

pydry wrote: post #282
ogogmad wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think that talking to Hitler is going to stop a war?

Saying "Ukraine will remain neutral and will not join NATO" would have stopped this war. It's an unpopular fact but it's still true.

> It's an unpopular fact but it's still true.

This is not a fact. It is at best an educated and optimistic opinion.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#764

Post by pvaldes »

willis936 wrote: post #628
sdevonoes wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Go on the street and take control of your country, before you turn into another North Korea. So, you are saying that one should risk their life for their country? No, thank you. I never understood this kind of "patriotism".

Options: Fight Flight Starve Advocating for fight is reasonable because it has the most benefit but the highest activation energy.

Starve is out of the table after Stalin used it as an atrocious instrument for mass genocide of Ucranian (and Russian) people in 1933. They remember and will not commit the same error of being passive with the new Stalin 2.0. As ugly as it sounds, "starve" there means cannibalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#765

Post by seba_dos1 »

igetspam wrote: post #748
qnsi wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CNN finds that twice as many Russians believe it would be right for Moscow to use military force to prevent Kyiv from joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) as say it would be wrong. One out of every two Russians (50%) says it would be right, while only a quarter (25%) say it would be wrong. The other quarter (25%) are unsure, according to the survey. But the poll also found that more Russians think it…

Anecdotal but... I was recently chatting with an old coworker. Their mother is still in Russia. The mother watches state run TV and listens to state run news. She doesn't really believe this is happening because the news says otherwise. She may believe there is some fighting but not that Russia is the aggressor. Obviously this is one relayed experience but it's important to keep propaganda machines in mind when talki…

Spending effort on convincing their family and friends that the state propaganda is not to be trusted is probably the best middle-term investment a Russian can make right now.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#766

Post by bigboiseal »

koonsolo wrote: post #728
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are any countries accepting refuges from Russia that seek asylum? This is an important topic. Some EU countries like Czechia are even blocking visas for Russian citizens now and I think this will be a trend in other EU countries. AFAIK, since Russia is the aggressor here and is (on paper) a democratic country (but not really), then its citizens are not considered yet victims of the war, and are most likely not falli…

> They're forced into a conflict they don't want to be in, and are suffering the consequences. Ukrainians are also forced into a conflict they don't want. Unfortunately, it's up to both the Ukrainians and Russians to do something about it, not Ukrainians alone. The Ukrainians clearly made their decision. Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs.

> The Ukrainians clearly made their decision. Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs.

Russia is a non-democratic country...

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#767

Post by me_me_me »

pydry wrote: post #282
ogogmad wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think that talking to Hitler is going to stop a war?

Saying "Ukraine will remain neutral and will not join NATO" would have stopped this war. It's an unpopular fact but it's still true.

Unpopular opinion.

Russia agreed to respect Ukrainian territory if they give up their nuclear arsenal.

Maybe before russia starts demanding something they should first keep their promises first

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#768

Post by me_me_me »

ssijak wrote: post #710
ogogmad wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine was not going to join NATO, given that it's having an ongoing territorial dispute with Russia. But also, Russia's belief that it's entitled to decide for another sovereign country which clubs it can and cannot join reveals what Russia's actual intentions were. [EDIT: The relevant club for Ukraine is actually the European Union.] The so-called "anti-Imperialists" on the far left like George Galloway who have a…

Are you naive enough in the thinking that US is not doing the same or even worse than Russia (because US reach is much bigger)? Influencing, blackmailing and toppling governments they deem not cooperative enough.

Who the fuck cares what US did/does, its completely separate matter.

Just because US is warmongering doesn't mean russia can too.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#769

Post by koonsolo »

bigboiseal wrote: post #766
koonsolo wrote: post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're forced into a conflict they don't want to be in, and are suffering the consequences. Ukrainians are also forced into a conflict they don't want. Unfortunately, it's up to both the Ukrainians and Russians to do something about it, not Ukrainians alone. The Ukrainians clearly made their decision. Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs.

> The Ukrainians clearly made their decision. Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs. Russia is a non-democratic country...

Ukraine was also a non-democratic country, until the people decided otherwise. And yes, it was pretty brutal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#770

Post by koonsolo »

throwaway3968 wrote: post #740
koonsolo wrote: post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're forced into a conflict they don't want to be in, and are suffering the consequences. Ukrainians are also forced into a conflict they don't want. Unfortunately, it's up to both the Ukrainians and Russians to do something about it, not Ukrainians alone. The Ukrainians clearly made their decision. Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs.

> Now it's up to the Russian people to make theirs. There's nothing we can realistically do. It's up to the military to start a civil war.

The Euromaidan also started with normal civilians. It seems they just didn't accept no for an answer. Later they indeed threatened to involve the reserve army since they were on their side. But the army was not required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

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