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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#291

Post by spuz »

stunt wrote: post #242
camhart wrote: post #54

Russia shouldn't be allowed to force decisions like this on any country. Let them join. We kicked the can down the road with Ukraine and look where that landed Ukraine. 2008 and 2014 we gave in and allowed Russia to do what they wanted. 2022 and Western countries are allowing it again. Its despicable. I don't want war. I don't want to go to war. But when someone approaches you and says "I own you" you either fight ba…

Replace Ukraine and Russia with Ireland and UK, and apply the same events that happened since 2000, you will end up with UK invading Ireland in 2022. I think this lecture (2015) explains the situation very well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

I watched that lecture but I still don't understand the situation. He explains that since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia made very clear that they did not want NATO to expand beyond Germany. And yet NATO did expand into Poland and the former Soviet states Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia etc. So why is Putin responding now when he already ensured Ukraine wouldn't join NATO in 2014 by invading the country's western region?

Secondly the lecture doesn't explain why Russia is so concerned about having a NATO member on their border. The treaty is a defensive one, not offensive. I don't think the lecture does a good job to help westerners understand the way in which the east mistrusts the west.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#292

Post by toxik »

belter wrote: post #285
toxik wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are completely ignorant of the current status and history of Europe. An attempted invasion of Finland and Sweden would be an unambiguous declaration of war on the European Union, there is no other interpretation. China would, no doubt, take such an opportunity to move on its military goals (eg Taiwan). It would mark the beginning of a third world war. If you don't even believe that the EU would defend its own ter…

Its not a question of being insane. It's different if you can have your boys back in body bags. You forgot this is the second war in European territory after the Yugoslavian wars. For months Sarajevo was being shelled and nothing was done until the US decided it was time to bomb. The Netherlands had a full battalion protecting a Bosnian enclave and let 7000 men be killed in front of their eyes. The Dutch government w…

The Balkan situation was much more similar to what's going on in Ukraine right now, there was really no immediate threat to the rest of Europe. Invading especially Sweden is completely different in this regard. If Sweden, why not Denmark, the Baltics, etc.

Finland is unique as it has historically been both Swedish and Russian territory, and borders both, but it is still nowhere near as ambiguous as Ukraine. There will be no breakaway provinces in Finland like Donetsk and Luhansk, there was no mass movement of Russian nationals to Finland during Soviet times as there was throughout the Soviet union. There is very little footing for Russian sentiment in Finland, and Finnish culture is at its core defined by the atrocities committed in the Civil War following the fall of the Tzar, and later the Winter War and Continuation Wars with the Soviet Union. Wars with Russia is part of Finnish DNA. It is just a completely different situation to what goes on in the former east bloc.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#293

Post by stunt »

spuz wrote: post #291
stunt wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Ukraine and Russia with Ireland and UK, and apply the same events that happened since 2000, you will end up with UK invading Ireland in 2022. I think this lecture (2015) explains the situation very well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

I watched that lecture but I still don't understand the situation. He explains that since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia made very clear that they did not want NATO to expand beyond Germany. And yet NATO did expand into Poland and the former Soviet states Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia etc. So why is Putin responding now when he already ensured Ukraine wouldn't join NATO in 2014 by invading the country's western…

He did mention in the lecture that Russia was too weak at the time to step up against neighboring countries joining NATO.

The whole thing is really sad indeed. I believe any country should have the freedom to choose its security and financial alliance, but my point is that isn't how it works with geopolitics. Any major power would do the same if they were in Russia's position.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#294

Post by [deleted] »

tim333 wrote: post #253
stunt wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace Ukraine and Russia with Ireland and UK, and apply the same events that happened since 2000, you will end up with UK invading Ireland in 2022. I think this lecture (2015) explains the situation very well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

Huh? I've lived in the UK and Ireland around those times and there is no interest in anyone invading or problems with them being part of this or that alliance.

[deleted]

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#295

Post by freedom2099 »

pinephoneguy wrote: post #283
voisin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?

As an American I hate NATO, that's a great way to start another World War.

It is the exact opposite!

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#296

Post by BuckRogers »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #185
BuckRogers wrote: post #36

I'm ashamed at our (the USA's) response. We have no choice here. When will this stop? Do we allow mutually assured destruction be used to have Putin march his troops into our beloved nation too? What about Georgia, Bosnia, Finland, Sweden? The only option, better done now than later is to ready, arm and prepare all our nuclear warheads, point them at Moscow, and then send our forces into Ukraine, repelling the Russia…

That isn’t the only response. There are a lot of things NATO can do without committing ground forces: - NATO could ensure a supply train for material coming from Poland and Romania: all Ukrainian forces need to do is hold a corridor from Poland/Romania to Lviv. - NATO could share intelligence and strategic advice to aid the Ukrainian forces’ ability to respond (I believe this is already happening) - if the war bogs d…

I thought about your comment after you wrote it, and I recently read this article from The Atlantic.[0]

I agree with your assessment, and have changed my mind. I believe what the article suggests. That President Biden has actually handled this situation perfectly thus far, is the most correct analysis. Allowing Putin to turn this into the US vs Russia is the worst case scenario. He'd love that. Today? He's getting absolutely pummeled. I won't be surprised if the Russian people don't end up hanging him.

[0]https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/how-the-we...

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#297

Post by CRConrad »

pakitan wrote: post #94
hnarn wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is not a member of Nato. Reconsider the logic in your line of thought.

Maybe you should reconsider your logic? Ukraine wasn't attacked because it's a NATO member, it was attacked because (among other things) it wanted to become NATO member. There isn't a process where you just submit your wish to become a member and the next day, voila, you're accepted! It's a long process and that's when you'll be most vulnerable to attack.

> Maybe you should reconsider your logic? Ukraine wasn't attacked because it's a NATO member, it was attacked because (among other things) it wanted to become NATO member.

IOW, it was attacked because it wasn't yet a NATO member. You seem to interpret that as "Better never try!", whereas a far more reasonable conclusion AFAICS is "Get it done ASAP!" Of all the countries Putler has so far invaded, exactly zero have so far been NATO members. Never trying to join NATO leaves a country indefinitely belonging to the high-risk group.

If the fricking NATO had got off its butt and accepted Ukraine ASAP after the last time it applied (2008 IIRC), then Ukraine -- including Crimea! -- could have been a member well before 2014. You really think they'd be where they are now if they were a NATO member?

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#298

Post by CRConrad »

pakitan wrote: post #189
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then presumably Georgia, Chechnya, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and the rest were also attacked because they wanted to join NATO?

Did I say that the only reason to get invaded by the Russians is wanting to join NATO?

So you're admitting Putler will use pretty much anything and everything as a pretext... And still advocating caving in to him on every pretext he can come up with?

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#299

Post by CRConrad »

avgcorrection wrote: post #95
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether they join or not, Finland and Sweden better beef up their defenses, starting yesterday...

What are you talking about? Sweden placed patrolling troops in Gotland right when Russia increased their presence in the Baltic Sea during this buildup.

Sweden has almost fuck-all to place anywhere compared to what it had a few decades ago. It's not like the Swedish Air Force is the fourth-largest in the world any more...

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#300

Post by CRConrad »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #265
ceejayoz wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a reasonable position. It's like me telling my next door neighbor they can't be friends with another neighbor. It's none of my business, and I'd be an asshole for demanding it. It also places Russia in direct violation of their own agreements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...

You have to also consider that it involves more than just being friends, it also involves putting airbases, missiles, and possibly nukes pointing at your house.

A) NATO has had nukes pointed at Moscow for half a century already, so that wouldn't be anything new.

B) Ukraine isn't much closer to Moscow than Lithuania is (and hugely father away from Leningrad than Estonia is), so this seems irrelevant.

What your neighbours and their friends put on their lawns is none of your business. If it's a lot of stuff usable for defending against arsehole neighbours, maybe in stead of attacking them you should think about what kind of a neighbour you are.

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