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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
181–190 of 317 posts
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't care about NATO. I'm talking about what my country alone, the USA, must now do. We can't allow anyone to use MAD as an excuse to march into a sovereign nation, anywhere on Earth. The US has to do the right thing now, and defend Ukraine before it falls. This is Hitler in Czechoslovakia. Going tit for tat on details of NATO and hand-wringing as I take it you are doing, is a point we are far beyond now. It's som…
But we aren't doing nothing. USA is 100% employing the old "Arsenal of Democracy" strategy. We're shipping huge amounts of weapons over to Ukraine. Just last January, we sent something like $200-million in weapons (largely Javelin missiles, which are clearly blowing up Russian tanks in pretty good numbers). That's January alone. There's different steps and different grades to the aid we can give to other countries. W…
It's just my opinion based on what I know. I hope whatever is done, whether it's my viewpoint or yours, is the correct one. There is likely no right answer here, just degrees of success and it depends how many innocent Ukrainians you're prepared to let die (and the citizens of the next nation on Putin's list). I'm praying for President Biden so he may make the right decision. So far, I'm dismayed.
It does sound like we both want success for Ukraine here. I just don't believe that anything but full-on measures will be enough. I think it's wishful thinking. Putin is clearly the bully at school that you either punched in the nose, or you didn't. If you didn't, you're likely still getting bullied to this day. They prey on weakness. The west is weak, and this is our moment to put our money where our mouth is on defending freedom.
>USA originally did nothing as Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia, Austra, Poland, and even France.
That's the problem. We already learned what happens next.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
Honest question, do you really believe that Russias attack was based on the NATO aspirations, or is that just an excuse? I don’t take what Putin says at face value.
Tbh it's tough to tell. There's a long history of Putin complaining about NATO expansion, and even before he came to power there were concerns about it. When Georgia was about to join NATO, Putin seized it. Seems like they are trying the same now. It's tough for me to empathise with this pathological fear of NATO Putin seems to have.
> When Georgia was about to join NATO, Putin seized it.
Russia occupied some parts of Georgia, similar to Ukraine prior to the current general invasion; Georgia remains a NATO partner and aspirant to membership, it hasn't yet been seized by Putin the way he is currently attempting in Ukraine.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#184As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…
I think a big problem, at least for Europe, is that we played directly into Russia's hands. If they cut off the gas, we are are screwed big time.
Blocking Russia's access to SWIFT would pretty much cut off that gas supply.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#185I'm ashamed at our (the USA's) response. We have no choice here. When will this stop? Do we allow mutually assured destruction be used to have Putin march his troops into our beloved nation too? What about Georgia, Bosnia, Finland, Sweden? The only option, better done now than later is to ready, arm and prepare all our nuclear warheads, point them at Moscow, and then send our forces into Ukraine, repelling the Russia…
That isn’t the only response. There are a lot of things NATO can do without committing ground forces:
- NATO could ensure a supply train for material coming from Poland and Romania: all Ukrainian forces need to do is hold a corridor from Poland/Romania to Lviv.
- NATO could share intelligence and strategic advice to aid the Ukrainian forces’ ability to respond (I believe this is already happening)
- if the war bogs down while Russian troops hold onto say a large area east of Kyiv, then NATO could use the “impregnable state border” to provide troop training and re-supply from inside the Polish border, or in an area just over the border in Ukraine.
- NATO could train Ukrainian pilots in Poland, and allow Ukrainian planes to be based out of a NATO air field (and could even supply those pilots with NATO planes, missiles, fuel, etc), similar to how Germany allowed the US to use bases on German soil to launch attacks on Iraq.
The last option seems unlikely (it’s probably close enough to joining in the fight with your own personnel that Putin would respond accordingly). But it is still something that could be done, would help Ukraine wage war, and wouldn’t technically involve NATO troops fighting within Ukraine.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe you should reconsider your logic? Ukraine wasn't attacked because it's a NATO member, it was attacked because (among other things) it wanted to become NATO member. There isn't a process where you just submit your wish to become a member and the next day, voila, you're accepted! It's a long process and that's when you'll be most vulnerable to attack.
The logic is that attacking a country that attempts to join a defensive alliance (Ukraine) underlines the undeniable necessity of that alliance existing in the first place. There would not be a point in joining Nato if Russia was a paper tiger, but they're working very hard to prove that they are not. They are painting a picture of themselves as violent, unpredictable and hostile to democratic values that we (Swedes)…
> defensive alliance
Yeah, right. Remind me please who was NATO defending against during the military operation in Libya? Iraq?
Regarding the rest of your arguments, whether you want to support joining NATO is your own business. I'm just looking at it from a game theory perspective. As far as I remember, so far there haven't been threats from Russia against Sweden. Now you want to join and there is a threat. You may be indignant and think other countries have no right to choose for you but the reality may be different, as the Ukrainans are finding out. Now they will have to forget about joining NATO AND will get occupied, when they could have just admitted that they can't beat Russia and agreed to not join NATO.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
NATO has not been viewed favorably in recent years, and some of it is for good reason. As much as I dislike Trump, he is right that many NATO members don't contribute their fair share. Many countries, even wealthy, highly developed ones, are missing the 2% target by a wide margin. On the name and shame highlight reel is: Norway, Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and the list goes on. I suspect we will se…
Most European countries have surprisingly dinky armies today. Germany has only 60,000 troops for a population of 83 million. Norway has only 3,725. France has 118,000. The UK has 82,000. There hasn't been much for them to do in decades. That just changed. Sweden has 24,000 on active duty. Finland has about 21,000. Large for the size of the countries. Both have a draft. Switzerland has 120,000 troops on active duty, a…
Wikipedia has a list that allows sorting by "per 1,000 capita (active)" [0] – scroll to the table and click the rightmost column to sort by active per 1k capita.
By this measure, the US is 51st on the list with a value of 4.2, behind many European countries and NATO members, e.g. Greece is #7 with 13.3.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of...
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#188Russia shouldn't be allowed to force decisions like this on any country. Let them join. We kicked the can down the road with Ukraine and look where that landed Ukraine. 2008 and 2014 we gave in and allowed Russia to do what they wanted. 2022 and Western countries are allowing it again. Its despicable. I don't want war. I don't want to go to war. But when someone approaches you and says "I own you" you either fight ba…
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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe you should reconsider your logic? Ukraine wasn't attacked because it's a NATO member, it was attacked because (among other things) it wanted to become NATO member. There isn't a process where you just submit your wish to become a member and the next day, voila, you're accepted! It's a long process and that's when you'll be most vulnerable to attack.
Then presumably Georgia, Chechnya, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and the rest were also attacked because they wanted to join NATO?
Did I say that the only reason to get invaded by the Russians is wanting to join NATO?
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#190[deleted]