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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#121

Post by [deleted] »

jdminhbg wrote: post #101
whatshisface wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America runs NATO and does not have a perfect history of only getting involved in justified wars itself. Being a NATO member means that other members can drag you in to something you wouldn't join yourself. For example, NATO helped in Iraq and Afghanistan (in small ways, by supporting the US-supported local forces), which weren't going to attack France for example any time soon. What Russia has done is made the odds…

> NATO helped in Iraq and Afghanistan A number of NATO countries joined both Iraq wars, but not all. The only one where Article V was invoked and NATO was officially involved was Afghanistan.

[deleted]

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#122

Post by avgcorrection »

sharken wrote: post #23
belter wrote: post #5

As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…

Yes, this is a very abrupt awakening from the general idea that Corona was handled well and thinking we can do everything. Here is Putin with the might of Russia at his disposal, a very different challenge altogether. As you, i fear that the leaders are not geared towards this kind of conflict at all. I would consider calling Putins bluff by accepting Finland and Sweden as NATO members. But only if the two countries…

Well, I thought that Putin was bluffing and wouldn’t even officially send troops into Donbas.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#123

Post by olliej »

whatshisface wrote: post #29
voisin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?

America runs NATO and does not have a perfect history of only getting involved in justified wars itself. Being a NATO member means that other members can drag you in to something you wouldn't join yourself. For example, NATO helped in Iraq and Afghanistan (in small ways, by supporting the US-supported local forces), which weren't going to attack France for example any time soon. What Russia has done is made the odds…

Yeah, America's track record of invading countries without cause is kind of appalling over the last 60 odd years.

Similarly their use of International Criminal Court for non-americans followed by claims that the ICC should not be used as it is not-elected when America has been caught committing war crimes.

America has not done a whole lot to help its own reputation in these matters :-/

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#124

Post by DeWilde »

BuckRogers wrote: post #36

I'm ashamed at our (the USA's) response. We have no choice here. When will this stop? Do we allow mutually assured destruction be used to have Putin march his troops into our beloved nation too? What about Georgia, Bosnia, Finland, Sweden? The only option, better done now than later is to ready, arm and prepare all our nuclear warheads, point them at Moscow, and then send our forces into Ukraine, repelling the Russia…

Somebody is enthusiastic about dying in a nuclear war.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#125

Post by BuckRogers »

dragontamer wrote: post #74
BuckRogers wrote: post #36

I'm ashamed at our (the USA's) response. We have no choice here. When will this stop? Do we allow mutually assured destruction be used to have Putin march his troops into our beloved nation too? What about Georgia, Bosnia, Finland, Sweden? The only option, better done now than later is to ready, arm and prepare all our nuclear warheads, point them at Moscow, and then send our forces into Ukraine, repelling the Russia…

What's the point of NATO if we just defend other countries who don't meet our requirements of NATO? NATO is _already_ in a tough spot, many countries will fail the 2% spending on defense requirement (though I'm sure Russia is making them reconsider). We can't just be throwing NATO's guarantees around to countries who didn't make it into the alliance yet. NATO is an alliance, and a defensive alliance at that. The line…

I don't care about NATO. I'm talking about what my country alone, the USA, must now do. We can't allow anyone to use MAD as an excuse to march into a sovereign nation, anywhere on Earth. The US has to do the right thing now, and defend Ukraine before it falls. This is Hitler in Czechoslovakia.

Going tit for tat on details of NATO and hand-wringing as I take it you are doing, is a point we are far beyond now. It's something I'd expect from a bureaucrat. Vladimir Putin is an evil man, that must be recognized and his soldiers have to be met on the battlefield today. They have to be repelled, and Putin brought to his knees, or we're going to be in a much larger mess down the road.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#126

Post by hnarn »

pakitan wrote: post #94
hnarn wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is not a member of Nato. Reconsider the logic in your line of thought.

Maybe you should reconsider your logic? Ukraine wasn't attacked because it's a NATO member, it was attacked because (among other things) it wanted to become NATO member. There isn't a process where you just submit your wish to become a member and the next day, voila, you're accepted! It's a long process and that's when you'll be most vulnerable to attack.

The logic is that attacking a country that attempts to join a defensive alliance (Ukraine) underlines the undeniable necessity of that alliance existing in the first place. There would not be a point in joining Nato if Russia was a paper tiger, but they're working very hard to prove that they are not. They are painting a picture of themselves as violent, unpredictable and hostile to democratic values that we (Swedes) value highly.

By your logic, if Russia ever did invade Sweden, the "logical" thing to do would be to lay down arms immediately: after all, we all want to live a "peaceful life", right? Presumably the same would go for Russia making demands on the size of Sweden's military budget.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#127

Post by dragonwriter »

sharken wrote: post #23
belter wrote: post #5

As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…

Yes, this is a very abrupt awakening from the general idea that Corona was handled well and thinking we can do everything. Here is Putin with the might of Russia at his disposal, a very different challenge altogether. As you, i fear that the leaders are not geared towards this kind of conflict at all. I would consider calling Putins bluff by accepting Finland and Sweden as NATO members. But only if the two countries…

> I would consider calling Putins bluff by accepting Finland and Sweden as NATO members. But only if the two countries agrees.

Yeah, NATO can't involuntarily admit members anyway.

> If indeed there is interest, NATO should admit the two in a day or two.

NATO membership is an active issue in both, but not something on which a political decision has been made.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#128

Post by sandman1906 »

anonyfox wrote: post #66

As a German I was today years old when I learned that sweden isnt part of the nato already … like the current secretary even sounds swedish by name … whelp Edit: really don’t want to sound ignorant here, just that while growing up and traveling around Central Europe there was a strong belief that we‘re all in the same boat and I even remember maps showing all countries (except Switzerland) in shades of „blue“ but … I…

Jens Stoltenberg is Norwegian

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#129

Post by watwut »

Ekaros wrote: post #96
watwut wrote: post #31

At this point, being in NATO feels safer then not being.

Quoted post unavailable.

Nah, if this is dig at Biden, he is not doing that badly and is actually better predictable.

Also, you don't seem to know what NATO is.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#130

Post by SllX »

actuator wrote: post #55
systemvoltage wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

If we can't even defend weak from a bully, what's the point of anything; specially when they seem to be asking for help. There are much unjustified and unasked for interventions that have been done even in the recent past. Are all our morals and ideals just for convenience.

This isn’t the goddamned playground with a bigger kid picking on a smaller kid. These are two nations at War and nobody has a defense pact or commitment with Ukraine because the concern was that making that pact would inevitably lead to a Russia-NATO war.

Our morals and ideals are not universally shared by our adversaries, and our adversaries include two Nuclear powers with ICBMs. One of them is the instigator in this conflict. So yeah, it would be more than just a little inconvenient to get into a shooting war with the Russians because Europe realistically may not actually survive the conflict and our saving grace would be what, at least Russia didn’t either?

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