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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#21

Post by prettygood »

belter wrote: post #5

As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…

This is a very delicate situation that can't be resolved by just sending troops and fighting. Neither the US nor Europe wants to have another world war. Definitely not now nuclear weapons are much more powerful.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#22

Post by causi »

belter wrote: post #5

As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…

Seven hundred billion dollars a year and we can't even defend the weak unless it looks profitable on the balance sheet. Never have I been more ashamed to be American than I was yesterday.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#23

Post by sharken »

belter wrote: post #5

As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…

Yes, this is a very abrupt awakening from the general idea that Corona was handled well and thinking we can do everything.

Here is Putin with the might of Russia at his disposal, a very different challenge altogether.

As you, i fear that the leaders are not geared towards this kind of conflict at all.

I would consider calling Putins bluff by accepting Finland and Sweden as NATO members. But only if the two countries agrees.

If indeed there is interest, NATO should admit the two in a day or two.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#24

Post by travisgriggs »

We seem to be at an impass. NATO exists to help people not feel threatened by Russia. Putin has decided that the mere existence of a real NATO is a threat to Russia (he's fine with a paper tiger institution that is all but imaginary).

It's like a European version of 1860 in the US.

As an American, I'd be (emotionally, but not rationally) glad to just put an end to 100 years of Russian aggression, mostly because I'm a child of the cold war and do not want to go back to that existence. But this lies on Russia's neighbors first. EU countries need to lead the way here.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#26

Post by AnimalMuppet »

prettygood wrote: post #21
belter wrote: post #5

As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…

This is a very delicate situation that can't be resolved by just sending troops and fighting. Neither the US nor Europe wants to have another world war. Definitely not now nuclear weapons are much more powerful.

I'm pretty sure that we're in World War III. We're just trying to pretend that we're not.

We're at least at the buildup to it.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#27

Post by zucked »

voisin wrote: post #16
bjoli wrote: post #9

Well then, Congratulations Russia! You have just given the Swedish NATO-movement more support than they could have ever mustered themselves! I have always been very sceptical of NATO membership, but the last month I changed opinion.

Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?

NATO has not been viewed favorably in recent years, and some of it is for good reason. As much as I dislike Trump, he is right that many NATO members don't contribute their fair share. Many countries, even wealthy, highly developed ones, are missing the 2% target by a wide margin. On the name and shame highlight reel is: Norway, Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and the list goes on.

I suspect we will see a renewed interest in making NATO a stronger alliance after this dust settles.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#28

Post by systemvoltage »

causi wrote: post #22
belter wrote: post #5

As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…

Seven hundred billion dollars a year and we can't even defend the weak unless it looks profitable on the balance sheet. Never have I been more ashamed to be American than I was yesterday.

No post body was provided.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#29

Post by whatshisface »

voisin wrote: post #16
bjoli wrote: post #9

Well then, Congratulations Russia! You have just given the Swedish NATO-movement more support than they could have ever mustered themselves! I have always been very sceptical of NATO membership, but the last month I changed opinion.

Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?

America runs NATO and does not have a perfect history of only getting involved in justified wars itself. Being a NATO member means that other members can drag you in to something you wouldn't join yourself. For example, NATO helped in Iraq and Afghanistan (in small ways, by supporting the US-supported local forces), which weren't going to attack France for example any time soon.

What Russia has done is made the odds of NATO dragging you in to something (which hasn't really ever happened in a major way) look much smaller than the odds of them invading you (which is happening to a NATO nonmember today).

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#30

Post by ch4s3 »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #18
ch4s3 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's starting to look like Putin may have miscalculated here.

Yeah, I bet they didn't count on losing the Champions League final. That's about the worst of impact so far.

Germany froze the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline project. Russia has a ton of reserves, but this will hobble them economically once the reserves are drawn down. The UK and US are debating seizing property belonging to Putin's circle of supporters, which could be very precarious for him domestically. Protests are breaking out in St. Petersburg and Moscow, and videos are turning up of captured Russian soldiers saying they didn't want to be part of the invasion. Things aren't going swimmingly for Putin.
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