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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#81

Post by hnarn »

voisin wrote: post #16
bjoli wrote: post #9

Well then, Congratulations Russia! You have just given the Swedish NATO-movement more support than they could have ever mustered themselves! I have always been very sceptical of NATO membership, but the last month I changed opinion.

Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?

There are many pros and cons, but from a Swedish perspective, one of the obvious "downsides" would be an end to the idea of Swedish neutrality, which has been a thing since the early 1800's. This may be a hard thing to relate to if you're not a Swede, but if you imagine any political tradition in your country that's over 200 years old, you may understand that the idea of changing it generates some reluctance. I would argue that Sweden is a constitutional monarchy to this day for the same reason, most people simply do not like change unless it's obviously necessary, and Russia may have just given people in Sweden that sense of necessity.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#82

Post by long_time_gone »

Ekaros wrote: post #34
travisgriggs wrote: post #24

We seem to be at an impass. NATO exists to help people not feel threatened by Russia. Putin has decided that the mere existence of a real NATO is a threat to Russia (he's fine with a paper tiger institution that is all but imaginary). It's like a European version of 1860 in the US. As an American, I'd be (emotionally, but not rationally) glad to just put an end to 100 years of Russian aggression, mostly because I'm a…

It really makes perfect sense. USA has long history of imperialism and anti-democratic actions. And USA is core of NATO. Any sane country knows that only safe way is to have reasonable buffer zone against such well known aggressor.

Ukraine was the buffer zone and Putin invaded them. Now he has NATO at his doorstep in Poland.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#83

Post by sharken »

watwut wrote: post #45
sharken wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is a very abrupt awakening from the general idea that Corona was handled well and thinking we can do everything. Here is Putin with the might of Russia at his disposal, a very different challenge altogether. As you, i fear that the leaders are not geared towards this kind of conflict at all. I would consider calling Putins bluff by accepting Finland and Sweden as NATO members. But only if the two countries…

What does this have to do with Corona, exactly?

Nothing per se, except the fact that Corona was an unknown virus that challenged leaders in the EU and US.

And now there is a new challenge of a very different kind, one that won't go away as easily.

That challenge is what we fear that the leaders are unable to find a good response to.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#84

Post by ceejayoz »

tpoacher wrote: post #71
ceejayoz wrote: post #3

"We'll invade you if you join NATO" loses its power a bit when you invade people who haven't joined NATO.

Quoted post unavailable.

Russia just invaded Ukraine on the "they might join NATO" pretext.

What are you imagining the "serious military... consequences" Finland and Sweden are being threatened with would consist of?

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#85

Post by jjtheblunt »

whatshisface wrote: post #29
voisin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?

America runs NATO and does not have a perfect history of only getting involved in justified wars itself. Being a NATO member means that other members can drag you in to something you wouldn't join yourself. For example, NATO helped in Iraq and Afghanistan (in small ways, by supporting the US-supported local forces), which weren't going to attack France for example any time soon. What Russia has done is made the odds…

american here: excellent answer and i'd say most here agree

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#86

Post by dragonwriter »

tyre wrote: post #44
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that we're in World War III. We're just trying to pretend that we're not. We're at least at the buildup to it.

This is not a world war. The fighting is specific to a single area. The Vietnam War involved at least double the number of involved countries and wasn’t considered a world war.

> This is not a world war. The fighting is specific to a single area.

That was true of WWII, until it wasn't.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#87

Post by sloan »

rhino369 wrote: post #77
voisin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why were you skeptical of NATO membership? What are the downsides?

You'll get nuked if Russia and the West ever are stupid enough to start WWIII.

Everyone dies in that scenario

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#89

Post by speeder »

sandworm101 wrote: post #68

I don't understand why Russia, or anyone else, thinks that Ukraine was anywhere near joining NATO. Ukraine had bits of it that were occupied by Russia, specifically Crimea. There was no way Ukraine would have been allowed to join under such circumstances because such occupations would have immediately triggered Article 5. Letting Ukraine into NATO would be tantamount to declaring war on Russia. It was never a real op…

Ukraine added that they will join NATO to their constitution, and in the past months NATO started to ramp up the amount of NATO weaponry in or near Ukraine.

Russia reaction is basically the reaction of anyone cornered, something Sun Tzu warned about, if someone is cornered they will fight back hard because they can't retreat, they can only go forward, through whoever is cornering them.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#90

Post by ledauphin »

ethanbond wrote: post #59
causi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seven hundred billion dollars a year and we can't even defend the weak unless it looks profitable on the balance sheet. Never have I been more ashamed to be American than I was yesterday.

This obviously has nothing to do with finances and everything to do with the fact that no one wants soldiers of two nuclear powers shooting guns at each other. This is the actual logic of nuclear weapons, and there is no going back to the world as it was before they existed.

There definitely isn't any going back. But anyone who thinks the Cold War was somehow the "end of history", meaning that WW3 will never happen because it _couldn't_ happen, is clearly engaging in non-systematic thinking.

If the rule is "nuclear powers must never fight", then the _only_ possible endgame is one nuclear power threatening all the others until they give up their nuclear weapons. Given that the US has never pursued this strategy, it seems fair to guess they won't in the future.

It seems increasingly likely that Putin believes that no one will ever stand up to him. And even if the West doesn't, it's going to end very badly for Russia when China is the only major world power left to oppose him.

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