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Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

reuters.com

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Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#411

Post by toyg »

rmk wrote: post #112
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ukraine is not a member of NATO, so options are somewhat limited Ukraine not being in NATO means we aren’t obligated to intervene. We regularly intervene in various things without a treaty requiring it.

Absolutely. But if a NATO member is attacked, then member states are obligated to come to the member's aid. It's essentially tantamount to saying, if you are at war with a NATO member, you are at war with the whole bloc, which includes USA, UK, France (somewhat in/out member over the decades), Germany, Turkey, and so on. It's a formidable group that acts as a deterrent to any would-be aggressor. The US is not obligat…

Turkey has complained for years that NATO would be required to help them with this or that conflict in the area, and it didn't.

In the end, there is no supranational tribunal for military allegiances - in matters of conflict, Hobbes' jungle is still very much there.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#412

Post by throw10920 »

RC_ITR wrote: post #347
drekipus wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong?

that was a 99 year lease expiring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_for_the_Extension_o...

...the Sino-British Joint Declaration is still in effect, until 2047.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#413

Post by Bud »

Unclear to me why Reuters articles seem officially blessed on HN in the face of superior reporting from NYT or WaPo, etc.

I guess the original reason for preferring Reuters or AP was, avoiding a paywall, but now of course, Reuters has a paywall.

So I would opine that the traditional flagging/downvoting of NYT links for this kind of story, in favor of Reuters, should cease.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#414

Post by tlear »

squarefoot wrote: post #253
charliea0 wrote: post #119

The Russian forces seem to be trying to encircle or assault Kyiv. I think they've taken the nuclear plant because it is a defensible point along their shortest line of advance. They wouldn't want to move past it without controlling the site.

> The Russian forces seem to be trying to encircle or assault Kyiv. Yes, but although Putin is a bloody bastard, he's not stupid. His plan isn't to take entire control of Ukraine militarily but to swap the legit government with a puppet one he would control at will. Once he succeed, which is a matter of a few days, he'll gradually withdraw most of the forces, things will slowly return to normal and in a few years Ukr…

You missed the step where he needs to brutalize population into submission. This will take time and mountains of corpses. He can’t just put a puppet there and call it a day. Puppet will be dead by week after. No he has to occupy the country and crush the opposition.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#415

Post by pbourke »

paulus_magnus2 wrote: post #284

We in the The West have some serious soul searching to do. A nuclear power has attacked a sovereign state and told us to stay away or something very bad will happen. They've been sabre rattling for weeks and weeks and we have frozen unable (or unwilling) to act. No good deed goes unpunished, every sanction has a cost etc etc but we're not ready to pay even a smallest price in order to save lives protect world peace.…

> Or at least we'd send them thousands of anti helicopter and antitank missiles

That happened - the UK sent 2000 NLAW anti-tank missiles and the US sent Javelins.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#416

Post by NateEag »

LandR wrote: post #383
t-writescode wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And we probably will. He wants a warm water port.

Russia has no warm water ports currently ?

Not sure if GP is serious or joking. Russia's history has been half-jokingly summarised as "the search for a warm-water port."

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44642451

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#417

Post by throw10920 »

rmk wrote: post #112
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ukraine is not a member of NATO, so options are somewhat limited Ukraine not being in NATO means we aren’t obligated to intervene. We regularly intervene in various things without a treaty requiring it.

Absolutely. But if a NATO member is attacked, then member states are obligated to come to the member's aid. It's essentially tantamount to saying, if you are at war with a NATO member, you are at war with the whole bloc, which includes USA, UK, France (somewhat in/out member over the decades), Germany, Turkey, and so on. It's a formidable group that acts as a deterrent to any would-be aggressor. The US is not obligat…

> if a NATO member is attacked, then member states are obligated to come to the member's aid

Are they really?

> So while the use of armed force is one way to respond to aggression, the NATO has several options, for example:

> Nothing. They might decide that the best way to "restore and maintain security" is to just let the attacker have that country.

https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/32686

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#418

Post by eps »

toyg wrote: post #388
squarefoot wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Russian forces seem to be trying to encircle or assault Kyiv. Yes, but although Putin is a bloody bastard, he's not stupid. His plan isn't to take entire control of Ukraine militarily but to swap the legit government with a puppet one he would control at will. Once he succeed, which is a matter of a few days, he'll gradually withdraw most of the forces, things will slowly return to normal and in a few years Ukr…

Gas is important, but what is more important is the nuclear arsenal. The US, China, Russia, Israel, India, Pakistan, and North Korea, are effectively untouchable by conventional military means, because they are able and willing to unleash nuclear holocaust in return - no matter what they do.

+ France and the UK

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#419

Post by giantrobot »

rmk wrote: post #70
hwers wrote: post #21

I can't really tell what's going on here. Is the EU and America supposed to be helping out but it's all promises without real counter attacks? Is this just the calm before the storm as russia places their troops in the right spots while everyone looks on? Anyone who's smarter than me who could enlighten me?

Ukraine is not a member of NATO, so options are somewhat limited. Russia intends to use Chernobyl as a deterrent to NATO, according to the report (how, I do not know). It is also not straightforward to put a NATO ally right on Russia's vulnerable flank (it's endless plains and flat ground from Ukraine to Moscow, which has always been a source of strategic vulnerability for Moscow), so admitting Ukraine to NATO was ne…

> Russia were forced to shore up their vulnerable flank

Your explanation isn't bad but this choice of words is strange. No one "forced" Russia to do anything. NATO has never overtly threatened Russia. Neither NATO or any European country was going to roll tanks through Ukraine and attack Russia. Even if every Eastern European country decided to get back at Russia for a half century of abuse from the USSR, the existence of Russia's nuclear arsenal secured their borders.

The Putin propaganda about tanks rolling through Ukraine is simply absurd. It's just some recycled Stalinist propaganda trying to equate NATO/Europe with Hitler and the Nazis.

I don't think any description of Putin's actions using the word "forced" or anything like it make actual sense.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#420

Post by mytailorisrich »

charliea0 wrote: post #119

The Russian forces seem to be trying to encircle or assault Kyiv. I think they've taken the nuclear plant because it is a defensible point along their shortest line of advance. They wouldn't want to move past it without controlling the site.

The exclusion zone is on the most direct zone from Belarus to Kiev. So they may be securing it as a prelude to sending ground troops to Kiev.
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