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Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

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Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they want Estonia? Also, I suppose war simply has a cost, sanctions and so on can simply be factored into the calculation. It's not a Russian mindset, it is rational.

There is a significant Russian minority in Estonia (as in other Baltics) who after de-russification remain "second class" citizens (without the right to vote for example).

Estonian here.

That is Russian propaganda, Estonian citizens all have the right to vote. There is a minority of Russians here who do not want to learn the language and become citizens, hence they can't vote. They have the attitude that we (Estonians) are occupying their land... it's crazy. Younger generation of Russians who are born here are mostly not like that though

*edit Even non-citizen Russians have the right to vote in local elections, just not in nation wide elections.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no going around it: any sanctions which don't even inconvenience the West don't hurt Putin and are already calculated into his plans.

Depends. You could target Russian citizens with strong ties to Putin with asset seizures like Roman Abramovich. Seizing Chelsea F.C. and handing it over to fans would be quite popular.

What would stop Russia to retaliate in that case? Every western company property in Russia would become a fair game, including e.g Bidens son and his property in Ukraine.

It's not the game anyone would like to play.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kosovo is a more apt comparison. There's no way of condemning annexation of the breakaway regions, while defending doing the same with Kosovo - without coming out as a hypocrite who bends the facts to fit his needs

In a way the comparison is understandable, but in Kosovo and Bosnia there were systemic etnic persecution and genocide by the Serbian government. A more similar comparison would be the US and USSR funding of factions in Italy during the Anni di Piombo. And then say US or USSR officialy arming and sponsoring Forza Nuova (or another militant organization) for indipendence of Padania.

And now there are Christian persecution and genocide under US protection: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Serbian_heritag...

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they want Estonia? Also, I suppose war simply has a cost, sanctions and so on can simply be factored into the calculation. It's not a Russian mindset, it is rational.

There is a significant Russian minority in Estonia (as in other Baltics) who after de-russification remain "second class" citizens (without the right to vote for example).

[deleted]

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they want Estonia? Also, I suppose war simply has a cost, sanctions and so on can simply be factored into the calculation. It's not a Russian mindset, it is rational.

There is a significant Russian minority in Estonia (as in other Baltics) who after de-russification remain "second class" citizens (without the right to vote for example).

This is russian propaganda!!! And I am half russian!

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#536
post #453

Would be interesting to hear from any russians in here, because i can't help to think that large majority of russians are complicit to what seems to be a dictator going mad as much as the dictators in his neighborhood (aliyev, khomeini, taliban etc)

Here's some examples (Google translate): What regular people think: https://meduza-io.translate.goog/feature/2022/02/24/ya-ne-ch... Widely known people: https://meduza-io.translate.goog/feature/2022/02/24/samoe-st... Both articles take words from my mouth. In last couple of days I've converted all my savings into foreign currencies and am looking to change the job if my current employer (US based) does not fix the wa…

I don't think those are regular Russians. They all seem connected to Ukraine. What do Russians who don't have Ukrainian relatives feel?

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Russia is willing or able to occupy Ukraine. They most likely want to "poison" the region and make the country undesirable in NATO. No superpower wants the enemy right at their border. The US didn't appreciate Russian missiles being put on Cuban land 60 years ago, Russia certainly doesn't want NATO forces and weaponry being put on Ukrainian land now. It doesn't take a strategist to see that all superpow…

> No superpower wants the enemy right at their border. There's a reason why Russia's neighbours are so nervous and want a support system: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Ru... And let's not forget Malaysia Airlines Flight 17: * https://en.w…

Everyone who was abused by a superpower is nervous and would like the same help. What's the point in making that list to support your point if you're not going to paint the other half of the picture which is making the opposite point?

Cuba would have loved to not be cut off from the world for more than half a century for doing what the Ukraine was just enticed to do. Palestine could use some help in what has to be one of the most unbalanced displays of power in a conflict in recent memory. The Middle East or Western Asia would have looked decidedly different without the "explosive support system" they received over the decades. And the South China Sea countries could use a hand settling their territorial disputes.

If you can't see how Russia would like the West to stay away from their borders (Ukraine) just as much as the US wanted Russia to stay away from their borders (Cuba) then maybe it's a good moment to take a step back and look at this without thinking of the names. If you care more about allegiance then you can't care about objectivity or history.

Cuba became the enemy of the US the moment they showed any allegiance to Russia. Was there a doubt in anyone's mind that the exact same thing would happen again when the tables are turned? If you're not educated by mass-media then the outcome was obvious. And you are free to wonder why would anyone approach a an enemy superpower's neighbor for an alliance, knowing full well that probably without exception in the history of mankind this lead to war.

I am fairly certain the EU could live with Ukraine as a buffer zone if that means no conflict in Europe and not crippling them. There are forces far enough from Europe who have no such concern about poking a hornets' nest and sacrificing/destroying Ukraine in the process.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's some examples (Google translate): What regular people think: https://meduza-io.translate.goog/feature/2022/02/24/ya-ne-ch... Widely known people: https://meduza-io.translate.goog/feature/2022/02/24/samoe-st... Both articles take words from my mouth. In last couple of days I've converted all my savings into foreign currencies and am looking to change the job if my current employer (US based) does not fix the wa…

I don't think those are regular Russians. They all seem connected to Ukraine. What do Russians who don't have Ukrainian relatives feel?

That that have been brainwashed or retarded support that. Reasonable people don’t.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Russia is willing or able to occupy Ukraine. They most likely want to "poison" the region and make the country undesirable in NATO. No superpower wants the enemy right at their border. The US didn't appreciate Russian missiles being put on Cuban land 60 years ago, Russia certainly doesn't want NATO forces and weaponry being put on Ukrainian land now. It doesn't take a strategist to see that all superpow…

> No superpower wants the enemy right at their border. Phrase it right: no power wants a country it can't bully on its border.

I did phrase it right. I don't care about judging the "morals" of any superpower but the status of "enemy" is less subjective.
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