Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

511–520 of 613 posts

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#511

Post by CamperBob2 »

mrjin wrote: post #444
CamperBob2 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shutting down their nuclear plants for no good reason was certainly not in Germany's best interests. They will now pay dearly for that boneheaded decision.

Fission is obviously no clean energy. The previous posts claiming neutralizing nuclear wastes in 600 years was a solution was absurd. But yeah, completely decommission nuclear power plants now for sure would be controversial. But I'm in no position to judge that decision. It's all about trade off, but for what is a question.

Yeah, there are no guilt-free answers when it comes to base load generation, and fission is no exception.

But when the plants already exist and you shut them down because the Japanese decided to build one in a tsunami-prone seismic zone, hire a corrupt organization to operate it well beyond its intended service life, and install backup generators in the basement, or because the Soviets built one and operated it under the "Hold my vodka and watch THIS" school of engineering, well... those just aren't good reasons, and also not the kind of thinking I expect from the Germans.

France's modern plants should help, but they won't come online for years.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#512

Post by jdrc »

realcertify wrote: post #510
jdrc wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i just dont get this mindset in which people draw up ahistorical parallels to make up excuses for something. You stated that the invasion has something to do with geopolitical danger for russia, and was not in retaliation for what US did in Iraq. Is it nationalism? Sense of isolation? Feeling of being denigrated/humiliated by the west? Just blatant personal cult?

My point is that in all of those cases there were reasons behind the attacks. You are not calling Bush or Clinton crazy for what they did right? Same for Russians.

Nationalism should be classified as mental illness

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#513

Post by vincnetas »

teatree wrote: post #151
glogla wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Putin is only doing this because of NATO missiles" is a Russian propaganda line. It is disheartening to hear it repeated on HN.

I am not aware of Russian / European geopolitics so pardon my ignorance, but isn't NATO reaching Russian borders a threat? Hypothetically, wouldn't the US would have serious concerns if Mexico decides to join a Chinese alliance. (I am not justifying a war, just wondering what could have been done on both sides to prevent it)

So instead of NATO reaching RU borders, Russia will preemptively do that and come closer to NATO border first. Much logic.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#514

Post by Klaster_1 »

jdrc wrote: post #453

Would be interesting to hear from any russians in here, because i can't help to think that large majority of russians are complicit to what seems to be a dictator going mad as much as the dictators in his neighborhood (aliyev, khomeini, taliban etc)

Here's some examples (Google translate):

What regular people think: https://meduza-io.translate.goog/feature/2022/02/24/ya-ne-ch... Widely known people: https://meduza-io.translate.goog/feature/2022/02/24/samoe-st...

Both articles take words from my mouth. In last couple of days I've converted all my savings into foreign currencies and am looking to change the job if my current employer (US based) does not fix the wage to USD or EUR. Since this morning, I have hard time thinking about anything but the war. The whole Ukraine situation and other occupied territories is repulsive, but the actual full-scale war was not what I expected. This should not have happened, period. My heart is wholly with Ukrainians. My mother's family comes from there to, so I'm half-ukranainian. As an RF citizen, I feel ashamed, sorry and helpless, even though regular people never had sufficient amount of political leverage during last two decades or even more. Russians will have to work hard to internalize the putin's rule when (if) he and his cronies go away, same as what people of Germany did after WWII.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#515

Post by raxxorrax »

trhway wrote: post #306
rebuilder wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what that reflects. Sanctions would not be very popular among the Russian population, is this just the regime calming down the populace? Or does it genuinely reflect the calculus here?

Realistically Russia can't occupy any significant part of Ukraine, nor Kiev in particular - tens of millions of pissed-off resisting Ukrainians with many taking up arms (on Ukrainian TV they said that they already give arms to such civilians as former police, and Zelenskiy said that they would give arms to all "willing and capable to defend the country") would shake off any army, and any such occupation attempt would…

Ask Crimeans. Putin invested heavily in the region and he probably has many supporters now. Some separatists begged Putin to invade. Difficult to say how numerous they are.

Maybe we see a new iron curtain in the middle of Ukraine.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#516

Post by modo_mario »

modo_mario wrote: post #369
flgb wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply not true. And even if it was nuclear is not a viable response with new projects taking decades to develop. Todays nuclear industry is delivering warmed-up 1970s technology that is expensive, slow, and inflexible. Solar/wind/batteries with a small amount of backup capacity from hydro, power-to-gas/fuel, biofuels, or new long-duration storage is cheaper and faster to deploy.

>This is not simply not true. You seem to be disagreeing with our greens. Gas is offered as the only backup source at that scale and timeframe. >Solar/wind/batteries with a small amount of backup capacity from hydro, power-to-gas/fuel, biofuels, or new long-duration storage is cheaper and faster to deploy. Wrong. [1]Nuclear wins out when kept open a bit longer and that is without accounting for storage methods. To sa…

correction: I meant "those don't fit everywhere" at the end as opposed to "anywhere"

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#517

Post by raxxorrax »

publicola1990 wrote: post #205
CodeArtisan wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 to "enforce peace". Same with Crimea in 2014. Then Luhansk and Donetsk a few days ago. Now the rest of Ukraine. Discussion with Putin is futile. When Russia started sending troops next to the Ukraine borders, NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev. It's too late now.

Many NATO members have strong enconomic links with Russia. For example Russia is building nuclear power plants in Turkey and Hungary, which are in very advanced state of construction for example.

The condemnation by Turkey sounded very diplomatic.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#518

Post by throw0101a »

buran77 wrote: post #495
trhway wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically Russia can't occupy any significant part of Ukraine, nor Kiev in particular - tens of millions of pissed-off resisting Ukrainians with many taking up arms (on Ukrainian TV they said that they already give arms to such civilians as former police, and Zelenskiy said that they would give arms to all "willing and capable to defend the country") would shake off any army, and any such occupation attempt would…

I don't think Russia is willing or able to occupy Ukraine. They most likely want to "poison" the region and make the country undesirable in NATO. No superpower wants the enemy right at their border. The US didn't appreciate Russian missiles being put on Cuban land 60 years ago, Russia certainly doesn't want NATO forces and weaponry being put on Ukrainian land now. It doesn't take a strategist to see that all superpow…

> No superpower wants the enemy right at their border.

There's a reason why Russia's neighbours are so nervous and want a support system:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Ru...

And let's not forget Malaysia Airlines Flight 17:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

Former Warsaw Pact members, and former 'provinces' of the Soviet Union, want to get on with their lives. Russia is making it harder for them than the other way around IMHO.

Western governments made a good faith effort to support Russia (e.g., G8), and it was only after Putin got into power and started heading in his own direction that things started to sour.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#519

Post by raxxorrax »

tremon wrote: post #433
2143 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> modern army and it was a total massacre You don't get it. Look, nobody has any doubt that USA is very powerful. But that doesn't mean they must annihilate the world. And Russia is no slouch. Diplomacy is the need of the hour. As somebody who lives far far away from Europe and North America (in a country that's supposed to have no skin in this game), I don't want to get killed because Uncle Sam wants to show who's b…

Diplomacy is the need of the hour. Diplomacy was yesterhour's need. It failed, otherwise there wouldn't be Russian troops all over Ukraine right now.

There was no diplomacy because the position of Russia was completely ignored. Surprisingly China stated openly that it was the fault of the west. That is ridiculous because they are not the people to invade here, but at no point was there effective diplomacy. On the contrary, everyone called Putins hand and now he put it on the table.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#520

Post by PickledHotdog »

deepsun wrote: post #446
Beltalowda wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of different takes on this, but I don't think Putin is as imperialistic or "crazy" as he's made out to be. Much of the problem is that the US promised Ukraine (and Georgia) that they could become a NATO member. From Putin's point of view that's the US expanding their influence right up to Russian's doorstep. While the cold war is over, it's not like "the west" (broadly speaking) and Russia ever really become all…

Ukraine could not not join NATO after Crimea and Donbass war in 2014. Before 2014, less than 70% of Ukrainians supported joining NATO, according to polls. About 30% supported actually joining Russia, and 60% supported a union with Russia. Everything changed in 2014, when Russia unilaterally invaded Ukraine. Less than 3% support joining Russia, and about 70% support joining NATO. After 2014, they realized Russia will…

Same too for Georgia (South Ossetia and Abkhazia)
Post reply on HN