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Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

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Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#201

Post by tifadg1 »

thepra wrote: post #110
winrid wrote: post #95

I'm curious, do folks here think Putin would have still invaded if Ukraine didn't consider joining NATO? While yes, Putin very much wants his old USSR back, it seems he's doing this in response to potentially having more NATO missiles on his borders. He's basically been saying "fuck around and find out" since 2008 when we said Ukraine would have the option of joining NATO.

From Putins interview he does explicitly say that he wouldn't be in this position if the NATO didn't push for Ukraine, as simple as that.

Oh yes and he isn't known for lying.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#202

Post by DocTomoe »

reitanqild wrote: post #37
watwut wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are referring to Germany 1936, it did not resembled modern western democracies at all. It was not established democracy at all prior. It was forced into democracy it never wanted after loosing war. Prior, it was heavily militarized some-constitutional monarchy. Their democracy was failing mess the whole time. If you are referring to something else, be concrete.

Thanks for pointing out. I'm comparing Germanys "helpful" occupations of neighboring countries "to help the poor Germans there against abuse" inhabitants to Putin's attempt to occupy Ukraine "to protect all the poor Russians there against genocide."

In all fairness, unlike Poland in 1939, Ukraine is not a country that managed to wage war against almost every single of their neighbours in the 20 years before the bigger fish came taking a bite.

That doesn't make Hitler any less a criminal - it just explains how his casus belli sounded more believable back in the day.

If we are comparing history, let's get the whole picture.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#203

Post by ingenieros »

mellavora wrote: post #160
tobylane wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia cares in the short and medium term, while their gas setup is nearer to and pointed towards Europe.

And in the short and medium turn, Europe cannot get to renewables. Re-doing an continent's energy grid takes time. Also, remember that many water heaters and house heating systems run on gas. Switching these to electric will also take time.

Exactly, not to mention that Europe only has about 6 weeks worth of gas reserves according to German analysts.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/23/europe-winter-...

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#204

Post by runarberg »

RobertoG wrote: post #159
runarberg wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are absolutely right. However, consider now that USA invades Canada as a result of this. This is infinity worse and always unacceptable. Nobody—not even American citizens—would tolerate that.

Sure, because American citizens don't accept USA invading other countries. Two week of 24 hours news with the proper perspective and the people would be asking in the streets for the invasion of Canada.

The last time USA invaded a foreign country under a false pretense we saw the biggest protests in US history. But then I do have to admit that Bush was reelected in the next election, so perhaps you are right and I am wrong.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#205

Post by publicola1990 »

CodeArtisan wrote: post #53
Hokusai wrote: post #11

This reminds me of each time people criticises the European Union for "condemning" something. Big organizations do things step by step. First you talk, then you act. Even Russia prepared a prerecorded pantomime of a discussion before acting. This are the gears moving and is no small thing, it sends a message and prepares for the worse.

Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 to "enforce peace". Same with Crimea in 2014. Then Luhansk and Donetsk a few days ago. Now the rest of Ukraine. Discussion with Putin is futile. When Russia started sending troops next to the Ukraine borders, NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev. It's too late now.

Many NATO members have strong enconomic links with Russia. For example Russia is building nuclear power plants in Turkey and Hungary, which are in very advanced state of construction for example.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#206

Post by RobertoG »

watwut wrote: post #185
RobertoG wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is in the middle of two "powers" and the proper role would be one of buffer. They could even benefit from that. Unfortunately, the Russian and the USA have both tried to take that part of the board for them and the Ukrainian population is split on their loyalties. Russian, simply can't allow more of the board, specially one part so close, to be dominated by the opponent. Anyone that think this conflict in ter…

One country is attacked by neighborhooding country with history of expanding into neighborhooding countries. > Russian, simply can't allow more of the board, specially one part so close, to be dominated by the opponent. Russian in fact could allow that. Whether Ukraine joins Nato should be between Ukraine internal debate and Nato internal debate. That Ukraine has both opinions present does not excuse nor explain Russ…

That's all very nice, but, unfortunately is not how the world works.

What about the Donbas region, do they have the right to decide in an internal debate?

Instead of trying to be pro-Russian or pro-West, Ukraine have lost a chance of become Switzerland and make a live getting presents from both sides. Now, I think, it's going to be split.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#207

Post by tpm »

kalessin wrote: post #157
nomercy400 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Russia cares. They have a growing, energy-hungering neighbor (China) buying their gas in the east, and a Europe committed to reduce their gas and oil usage in the next 10 years in the west.

It is important to note that the gas exported to China and Europe are exported from different fields, and are not connected with each other. As it stands right now, Russia cannot export the gas it produces for Europe to China.

And China interestingly does not want Russia to build the pipeline that would enable that.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#208

Post by tpm »

ingenieros wrote: post #203
mellavora wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in the short and medium turn, Europe cannot get to renewables. Re-doing an continent's energy grid takes time. Also, remember that many water heaters and house heating systems run on gas. Switching these to electric will also take time.

Exactly, not to mention that Europe only has about 6 weeks worth of gas reserves according to German analysts. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/23/europe-winter-...

which is plenty because the winter is ending, so even without gas nobody should freeze. What would the industry do is other question.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#209

Post by woodpanel »

hef19898 wrote: post #192
mopsi wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And Russia would've been scared and retreated. Yes. Without sarcasm. This happened several times with Trump, who despite all his faults, was a master bullshitter and master at seeing through other bullshitters. A notable episode was an attack by Russian Wagner group on a small outpost held by 30-something US special forces soldiers guarding a gas plant in Syria. Signals intelligence was later able to capture a few…

Not so sure if Trump succeeded. All Trump did was tell Putin "do whatever you want with whomever, as long as you leave my interests alone" (as in my personal interests). Did you forget the Helsinki summit, the one without interpreter? Or the Russian bounty on US troops in Afghanistan?

Amazing, there are still people out there believing the Russian Bounty hoax?

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/liz-cheney-lied-about-her-r...

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#210

Post by RobertoG »

runarberg wrote: post #204
RobertoG wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, because American citizens don't accept USA invading other countries. Two week of 24 hours news with the proper perspective and the people would be asking in the streets for the invasion of Canada.

The last time USA invaded a foreign country under a false pretense we saw the biggest protests in US history. But then I do have to admit that Bush was reelected in the next election, so perhaps you are right and I am wrong.

By the way, I don't mean that American citizens are special in this. We are all brainwashed in supporting what was already decided.
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