Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 613 posts

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#151

Post by teatree »

glogla wrote: post #106
winrid wrote: post #95

I'm curious, do folks here think Putin would have still invaded if Ukraine didn't consider joining NATO? While yes, Putin very much wants his old USSR back, it seems he's doing this in response to potentially having more NATO missiles on his borders. He's basically been saying "fuck around and find out" since 2008 when we said Ukraine would have the option of joining NATO.

"Putin is only doing this because of NATO missiles" is a Russian propaganda line. It is disheartening to hear it repeated on HN.

I am not aware of Russian / European geopolitics so pardon my ignorance, but isn't NATO reaching Russian borders a threat?

Hypothetically, wouldn't the US would have serious concerns if Mexico decides to join a Chinese alliance.

(I am not justifying a war, just wondering what could have been done on both sides to prevent it)

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#152

Post by praptak »

smsm42 wrote: post #60
Hokusai wrote: post #11

This reminds me of each time people criticises the European Union for "condemning" something. Big organizations do things step by step. First you talk, then you act. Even Russia prepared a prerecorded pantomime of a discussion before acting. This are the gears moving and is no small thing, it sends a message and prepares for the worse.

The problem is not condemning, the problem is just condemning and not taking the next step, or making it so weak it actually emboldens tbe agressor, who thinks "oh, that's all they got? Wasn't too bad, I guess I'll just keep on"

This is the biggest problem. I don't believe the sanctions imposed on Russia for the previous acts of aggression reached the level which Putin had already calculated into his plans.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#153

Post by simonh »

misja111 wrote: post #99
gambiting wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev And when those American soldiers are killed by Russian missiles, do you then declare full on war on Russia, and we basically all die? Because like....there is no other good option out of this you know. By placing American(or NATO) troops and assets in the harms way, you need to be prepared for what you are going to do if those…

> And when those American soldiers are killed by Russian missiles, do you then declare full on war on Russia You are assuming here that Russia would be willing to cause a World War by attacking those American soldiers. > as a Pole the risk of actually being involved in military operations is making me extremely uncomfortable right now. But the alternative, to let Russia have Ukraine, will become very uncomfortable in…

I’m afraid while I support strong action against Russia, I think we should have kicked them off Swift in 2014, sending us troops to Ukraine wouldn’t achieve anything. The Russians would simply ignore them.

If they got hurt during the invasion, the Russians would just claim, possibly entirely legitimately, that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and the US is using it as an excuse for escalation. Which in fact is exactly what you’re suggesting. It would be a serious misstep we can’t afford. We should have acted decisively sooner, but now we’re here we should act decisively now. Close the pipelines completely and shut off Russia from swift. Ban all foreign travel for any Russian government employees. We’re at war with this guy, we need to act like it.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#154

Post by awb »

wiz21c wrote: post #118

Why does Putin try to invade parts of Ukraine ? What's its interest ? Is it economical ? is it for interior politics ? is it to destabilize Europe ? does someone can conjecture a bit ?

It was originally part of the USSR. Putin has said many times he thinks breaking up the USSR was a huge mistake and wants to re-acquire those territories.

But yeah why does anyone start a war? Power, control, money, distraction, madness, idealism, etc. Probably a little of everything.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#155

Post by ricardobayes »

CodeArtisan wrote: post #53
Hokusai wrote: post #11

This reminds me of each time people criticises the European Union for "condemning" something. Big organizations do things step by step. First you talk, then you act. Even Russia prepared a prerecorded pantomime of a discussion before acting. This are the gears moving and is no small thing, it sends a message and prepares for the worse.

Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 to "enforce peace". Same with Crimea in 2014. Then Luhansk and Donetsk a few days ago. Now the rest of Ukraine. Discussion with Putin is futile. When Russia started sending troops next to the Ukraine borders, NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev. It's too late now.

Next up is Finland. Also not a NATO member.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#156

Post by rebuilder »

trhway wrote: post #132
smsm42 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not condemning, the problem is just condemning and not taking the next step, or making it so weak it actually emboldens tbe agressor, who thinks "oh, that's all they got? Wasn't too bad, I guess I'll just keep on"

On the main, "voice of the state", the 1st channel of Russian TV they have just discussed that the West would introduce more sanctions, yet half a year down the road the West would just get used to the situation.

I wonder what that reflects. Sanctions would not be very popular among the Russian population, is this just the regime calming down the populace? Or does it genuinely reflect the calculus here?

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#157

Post by kalessin »

nomercy400 wrote: post #131
jl6 wrote: post #121

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus Russia’s exports are >50% oil and gas products. The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables.

Like Russia cares. They have a growing, energy-hungering neighbor (China) buying their gas in the east, and a Europe committed to reduce their gas and oil usage in the next 10 years in the west.

It is important to note that the gas exported to China and Europe are exported from different fields, and are not connected with each other. As it stands right now, Russia cannot export the gas it produces for Europe to China.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#158

Post by icelancer »

watwut wrote: post #89
sofixa wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The position is understandable because Russia is playing a Grand Strategy Game in the past, and doesn't want the enemy ( NATO) to be at all their borders. Justified? Right? Humane? Absolutely not.

That is not understandable. "I don't like nato at the border, therefore I will push my border toward nato". Russian "nato is ennemy" exists, because Russia wants nato be ennemy. It prevents further expansion.

Putin already believes he shares a border with NATO. Ukraine is not independent in his mind. Foundations of Geopolitics explains in depth what modern Russian foreign policy is aiming for.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#159

Post by RobertoG »

runarberg wrote: post #94
rmu09 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose canada tried to join china and north korea in some kind of military pact. USA would not possibly tolerate that.

You are absolutely right. However, consider now that USA invades Canada as a result of this. This is infinity worse and always unacceptable. Nobody—not even American citizens—would tolerate that.

Sure, because American citizens don't accept USA invading other countries.

Two week of 24 hours news with the proper perspective and the people would be asking in the streets for the invasion of Canada.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#160

Post by mellavora »

tobylane wrote: post #147
nomercy400 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Russia cares. They have a growing, energy-hungering neighbor (China) buying their gas in the east, and a Europe committed to reduce their gas and oil usage in the next 10 years in the west.

Russia cares in the short and medium term, while their gas setup is nearer to and pointed towards Europe.

And in the short and medium turn, Europe cannot get to renewables. Re-doing an continent's energy grid takes time. Also, remember that many water heaters and house heating systems run on gas. Switching these to electric will also take time.
Post reply on HN