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Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

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Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#441

Post by enimodas »

wiz21c wrote: post #118

Why does Putin try to invade parts of Ukraine ? What's its interest ? Is it economical ? is it for interior politics ? is it to destabilize Europe ? does someone can conjecture a bit ?

Cultural encroachment (think monroe doctrine), nato encroachment (think Cuban missile crisis). Less important but probably considered: geopolitically Russia needs buffer states in the east because there's no natural defenses/borders. It's an easy invasion from that direction.

Good article: https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220222-moldova-then-geo...

Key quote: “Russia is always anxious about foreign penetration – not only in terms of military involvement and political engagement but also in cultural terms,” Fasola told FRANCE 24. He pointed to the so-called “colour revolutions” that brought pro-Western governments to power in Georgia (2003) and Ukraine (2004) – and which the Kremlin perceived as “instruments of the West to drive those countries away from Russia”.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#442

Post by [deleted] »

ricardobayes wrote: post #155
CodeArtisan wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 to "enforce peace". Same with Crimea in 2014. Then Luhansk and Donetsk a few days ago. Now the rest of Ukraine. Discussion with Putin is futile. When Russia started sending troops next to the Ukraine borders, NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev. It's too late now.

Next up is Finland. Also not a NATO member.

[deleted]

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#443

Post by Pawka »

gardaani wrote: post #432

I had a look at the size of the armies in Baltic countries. According to [1][2], they have no tanks or fighter aircrafts. That can't be right? If it is true, then no wonder they are worried. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_... [2] https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing-europe.php

There are NATO fighters & tanks of other alliance members continuously deployed in these regions.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#444

Post by mrjin »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #337
mrjin wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You serious? Each nation has their own interests. MAGA has obviously proved blindly following was a really bad idea.

Shutting down their nuclear plants for no good reason was certainly not in Germany's best interests. They will now pay dearly for that boneheaded decision.

Fission is obviously no clean energy. The previous posts claiming neutralizing nuclear wastes in 600 years was a solution was absurd. But yeah, completely decommission nuclear power plants now for sure would be controversial. But I'm in no position to judge that decision. It's all about trade off, but for what is a question.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#445

Post by trasz »

WJW wrote: post #346
sgjohnson wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting to full energy independence with renewables is a project that will take a decade or more. Try at least 2-3 decades. Personally I'm still a firm believer in nuclear power.

Not that I'm against nuclear, but getting to full energy independence with nuclear seems like it would need several decades as well. For example, the Blue Castle project in Utah ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Castle_Project ) started on the drawing board in 2007, started looking for contractors in 2016, hopes to start construction in 2023 and hopes to be fully operational in 2030. That is if construction is not…

Most of the rest of the world is China, and they are building some 20 nuclear power plants at the moment.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#446

Post by deepsun »

Beltalowda wrote: post #320
wiz21c wrote: post #118

Why does Putin try to invade parts of Ukraine ? What's its interest ? Is it economical ? is it for interior politics ? is it to destabilize Europe ? does someone can conjecture a bit ?

Lots of different takes on this, but I don't think Putin is as imperialistic or "crazy" as he's made out to be. Much of the problem is that the US promised Ukraine (and Georgia) that they could become a NATO member. From Putin's point of view that's the US expanding their influence right up to Russian's doorstep. While the cold war is over, it's not like "the west" (broadly speaking) and Russia ever really become all…

Ukraine could not not join NATO after Crimea and Donbass war in 2014.

Before 2014, less than 70% of Ukrainians supported joining NATO, according to polls. About 30% supported actually joining Russia, and 60% supported a union with Russia.

Everything changed in 2014, when Russia unilaterally invaded Ukraine. Less than 3% support joining Russia, and about 70% support joining NATO. After 2014, they realized Russia will never stop, so NATO was their only option (it's actually NATO that didn't want to accept them, as they worry about safety of all its members).

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#447

Post by 3pt14159 »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #254

I'm trying to help people evacuate from Ukraine. If you know anyone who wants out, DM me: Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/theshawwn/status/1496761074258952193 Telegram: https://t.me/theshawwn Urgent: If you know anyone near Kiev who can drive two elderly people plus one child to Romania, please contact me ASAP. (Note: Male drivers need to be under 18 or over 55, since they'll likely be stopped by law enforcement…

(I'd prefer not to tweet this, since family members etc follow me there.)

If anyone knows a Ukrainian[0] woman that wants to flee and needs shelter / airfare I don't really need my room in Toronto since I'm traveling for work. There is a kind, hardworking woman in the other room, but the condo unit is a two bedroom, two bathroom and my room comes with its own washroom.

She can stay for as long as it takes to get refugee stuff figured out. Please respond here with contact details, sometimes I miss emails because of anti-spam. Or you can try me on Twitter via DM: @zachaysan

[0] Nationality, not ethnicity; ie, ethnic Russian or Uzbek is fine.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#448

Post by ricardobayes »

shawabawa3 wrote: post #341
ricardobayes wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Next up is Finland. Also not a NATO member.

Finland is in the EU - a much stronger alliance than NATO

I disagree, the EU doesn't have an army. So if Finland is invaded they can send their "thoughts and prayers in these difficult times".

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#449

Post by andbberger »

salawat wrote: post #176
irrational wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m fairly certain that some people truly do want to see the world burn.

Hard to do with cooked retinas, acute radiation poisoning, and the prospects of living beyond 20 cancer free are minimal. Also, the world's a big place, even though the internet has made it seem small. Yes, I understand it'd be nice to watch a good fee choice chunks burn... But I really don't think anyone is prepared for the hell on Earth of a full strategic nuclear exchange.

cooked retinas... try melted eyeballs... happened at hiroshima. nuclear weapons are truly barbaric

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#450

Post by gambiting »

nosianu wrote: post #422
gambiting wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and send a message that says "you can kill American troops without consequences"? And if that's your strategy - why send them there in the first place?

So.... Afghanistan? How many soldiers from several Western nations died there, and of the US in particular? Only to recently withdraw unconditionally and even hand over lots of military equipment to the enemy they had been fighting for decades? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualt...

...but how many of those were killed by Russian forces? If Russia attacked US troops in Afghanistan then yeah, that would have been a comparable situation. US isn't going to nuke Afganistan over killing American soldiers, because that's not the stated policy.
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