Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

431–440 of 613 posts

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#431

Post by Sosh101 »

deepsun wrote: post #373
neuronic wrote: post #253

We stopped Nord Stream 2 in Germany, finally. The former GDR state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern was obviously hoping for much needed jobs and taxes, but we stopped it now. It was always wrong to accept this pipeline, it was purely political. Now I also hope the US will stop all oil imports from Russia as well if not already done so. We need to cut off Russia from every single international penny and influence. In German…

Nord Stream 2 doesn't matter for Russia. There are several alternative options (e.g. Nord Stream 1). The main reason Russians built it is to spend government money on top officials development companies. If Europe closes NS2, it's even better, let's build it to New Zealand. The whole Nord Stream 2 thing is pathetic. Ex-German chancellor Shroeder is on its board of directors. And Germany kinda plays on Russian side he…

> If they agree with Russia to split Poland again, I wouldn't be surprised.

Let's keep things civil and in the realms of sanity, can we please.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#432

Post by gardaani »

I had a look at the size of the armies in Baltic countries. According to [1][2], they have no tanks or fighter aircrafts. That can't be right? If it is true, then no wonder they are worried.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_...

[2] https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing-europe.php

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#433

Post by tremon »

2143 wrote: post #219
mopsi wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And Russia would've been scared and retreated. Yes. Without sarcasm. This happened several times with Trump, who despite all his faults, was a master bullshitter and master at seeing through other bullshitters. A notable episode was an attack by Russian Wagner group on a small outpost held by 30-something US special forces soldiers guarding a gas plant in Syria. Signals intelligence was later able to capture a few…

> modern army and it was a total massacre You don't get it. Look, nobody has any doubt that USA is very powerful. But that doesn't mean they must annihilate the world. And Russia is no slouch. Diplomacy is the need of the hour. As somebody who lives far far away from Europe and North America (in a country that's supposed to have no skin in this game), I don't want to get killed because Uncle Sam wants to show who's b…

Diplomacy is the need of the hour.

Diplomacy was yesterhour's need. It failed, otherwise there wouldn't be Russian troops all over Ukraine right now.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#434

Post by AlfeG »

raducu wrote: post #275
ayngg wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is happening because the west has no leverage and asymmetrical priorities. Russia -really- cares that Ukraine stays out of NATO, probably to the point where they would scorched earth the country before it joined, and the west only kinda cares about Ukraine comparatively, as demonstrated in 2014 and 2008. If they actually really care, sanctions don't mean much. Makes me wonder why the west thought the third time…

Russia does not care about Ukraine joining NATO, Russia has nukes. Russian politicians care about Ukraine being a prospering democracy and a model for russian citizens. That's it.

There is no a lot of democracy in UA. Literally all opposition were shut down or applied sanction. No media other then telegram can work free. There is a big corruption on every level.

I dont like Russia or want them been there. But there is no such thing as single united Ukraine. Saying this is literally a crime and "putin propaganda"

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#435

Post by notahacker »

mopsi wrote: post #305
vetinari wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to use nukes effectively, you need to have second strike capabilities. You know, the 'M' in 'MAD'. Ukraine in NATO means US nukes on Russia border, tipping the balance. It would be similar to Russia placing their bases and weapons into Canada or Mexico.

> Ukraine in NATO means US nukes on Russia border, tipping the balance. No, it does not. A number of Eastern European countries are in NATO and none of them have American nuclear weapons. Where does this silly idea come that after joining NATO, American missiles somehow appear in the new member? Modern-day NATO is a cooperation platform for joint exercises etc, not some missile club that starts delivering ICBMs every…

I would go further and suggest Putin's latest move made deployment of ICBMs somewhere like Estonia (which could theoretically have hosted them since the 90s) more likely, not less.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#436

Post by bluecalm »

HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #217
jl6 wrote: post #121

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus Russia’s exports are >50% oil and gas products. The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables.

Unfortunately countries like Germany have made completely idiotic moves in the past months in the exact opposite direction. Hopefully other sanctions will also help. Cutting them off from the international banking system, for example.

It's not idiotic. They are just friends with Putin. Just see where their former top officials are employed, how they torpedoed the Norway-Poland pipeline and how they were pushing Nordstream 2 even though everyone told them it will destabilize safety of Baltic states. It's not incompetence, it's too consistent.

I am hopeful about sanctions but I am afraid Germans won't allow ones that actually work.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#437

Post by hef19898 »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #396
hef19898 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the Cuban Missile Crisis might have word regarding enemy troops close to the US mainland.

NATO is a defensive alliance made up of many independent sovereign nations, all of whom freely asked for and were granted membership. Don't want conflict with NATO? Easy, don't attack any of their members. Seems simple enough. Cuba was a Soviet client state, and installing missiles there was clearly an offensive act.

Well, not that Germany had much to say when the US stationed patriot missiles. That's a tangent so. Don't forget the fact that, before the USSR sent missiles to Cuba the US had mid-range missiles in Turkey. And those were, by the way, closer to the USSR than the missiles in Cuba were to the US.

Reality isn't easily divided into good guys and bad guys...

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#438

Post by hobo_mark »

kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #382
deepsun wrote: post #365

I've grew up near Russia, and I can describe you their mindset: all "agreements", "sanctions", "borders" etc don't matter. They are just distractions to prepare positions and advance their military. All that matters is force. There's a Russian proverb: "All territories are ours, it's just someone temporary occupied them". They also think in terms of territories (not people or economy) and victories. If they start los…

Why would they want Estonia? Also, I suppose war simply has a cost, sanctions and so on can simply be factored into the calculation. It's not a Russian mindset, it is rational.

There is a significant Russian minority in Estonia (as in other Baltics) who after de-russification remain "second class" citizens (without the right to vote for example).

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#439

Post by glandium »

Borrible wrote: post #252

It will probably get even better. Just wait until something really ugly happens. Such as the 'accidental' shooting down of aircraft over Russian-occupied Ukrainian territory... https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PBD948

MH17 shoot down didn't trigger worse things than were already happening.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#440

Post by aa-jv »

cleancoder0 wrote: post #230
jl6 wrote: post #121

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus Russia’s exports are >50% oil and gas products. The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables.

This is unfortunately highly unlikely. A lot of EU politics depends on the pockets of rich Russian oil firms. Just look at Austria, very rich but obviously Russian run EU country. (latest prime minister got fired by Russians even though Russia cyberarmy helped him win the elections. They decided he was no longer as compliant, so they leaked data many years after elections, Russian scandals several years before that e…

This is outrageous agitprop/misinformation.

If "Russian influence" is on the table, then so is "CIA influence".

Or wait, lets talk about "General Dynamics Influence", and yes, with a capital-I.

And then we shall proceed to the discussion of which particular entity has the most actual blood on its hands, of innocents, as rapidly as possible.

Post reply on HN