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EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

europarl.europa.eu

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Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#161

Post by aembleton »

ensignavenger wrote: post #117
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

What I could not find in the document is how it defines 'equal work' and 'equal value'?

Its a job for lawyers.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#162

Post by wing-_-nuts »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #113
hughrr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rather liked it when employers asked about pay history because I used to lie about it. I managed to double my salary in two job jumps!

You are lucky they did not use equifaxs https://theworknumber.com/ to get your salary info. Or maybe they did and your salary info wasn’t there. Many of my employers have reported my salary to that database without my consent. It is easy to obtain. There was an article on HN about it within the last month.

This is why I redirect the question to my comp requirements, instead of my pay history. Any company that absolutely insists on salary history is not one I will work for anyway.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#163

Post by paganel »

Levitz wrote: post #58
simonh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not fiction, that's hyperbole, but there are factors other than gender by itself that accounts for a lot of the remaining disparity between men and women's pay. Taking a career break to have children, historical 'steering' of women away from STEM subjects in education, some apparent natural tendency for many women to avoid such subjects even when they have a free choice, a tendency for women to not challenge the…

The idea that the average income for men and women isn't the same is not fiction at all, it's completely real. It is also not the idea that is frequently paraded around when talking about a pay gap, since it can actually be argued against in sensible terms, for example, if women simply ask for raises less often than men, is that really unfair? What more often than not happens is that the idea of a pay gap is presente…

> it's completely real.

It's also completely real that many women in their 20s and 30s, biologically, tend to not be available for work for maternity reasons. As an employer you have to include that opportunity cost of in the equation. Also, a woman in her late 30s - early 40s with two kids probably has a 2 or 3 year-hiatus when it comes to work experience compared to her male-colleagues.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#164

Post by mhoad »

Gareth321 wrote: post #149
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

>Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. This is literally impossible in anything other than rote manual labour. Even then, I'm not convinced this is possible.

I don’t know this sounds like it maps to a SQL query to me assuming you use consistent job titles and possibly the concept of “grades” e.g Level 1 Software Engineer

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#165

Post by giantg2 »

wil421 wrote: post #110
rietta wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite the same, but when asked by a State agency what it would take for to go on full time I gave a number and was told that is more than the Governor makes. My response was well he also gets a house! We had a good laugh together.

Well I looked my Governor up and he makes $175k. California’s Governor makes the most at $201k. I toyed at the idea of some Federal government IT jobs. An agency was trying their best to pay well and the level was similar to a civilian who has a PhD or MD doing federal work but still only a little more than the median software dev salary.

Usually government contractors can do well since they don't fall in the government pay grades. I interviewed at one paying something like $110-150k, which would be a substantial increase for me.

Most government jobs aren't attractive anymore. I think the COLA was like net -2% last year. Pensions are mostly gone. Politics are raging lately.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#166

Post by dmitriid »

HideousKojima wrote: post #102
dijit wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this (as a euro), then I met an American and he explained that he ended up better off in Europe on a "lower" salary because he hadn't considered the hidden costs of living in the USA. He claimed (though I'm certainly no expert) that you have to do your own taxes and set aside money for that; he also claimed that "sales tax" had local, state and federal taxes applied, so while it varies from state to s…

>He claimed (though I'm certainly no expert) that you have to do your own taxes and set aside money for that; Unless you're a contractor, small-business owner, or some other sort of self-employed, no. Taxes are deducted automatically from your paycheck by your employer from every paycheck. At the end of the year you need to file a tax return, and you can do this yourself for free. But even most paid tax return servic…

> and even then it's only mandatory that f

"only if". Given that having a car is a must in the vast majority of places in the US. And given that yes, you do need medical insurance.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#167

Post by cloverich »

Raed667 wrote: post #20

Is there anything in this text that would prevent a company from posting offers with very large ranges? "this position salary can be from €35k to 75k€ depending on multiple factors" Such ranges would render it pointless

The reality (based on my current interviewing) is open roles already have this range, and it is relatively wide. But by not disclosing they can get you lower. Say range is 170-220, you are coming from 170; they offer you 170 and you negotiate 180. You feel good and got a bump, but employer could have gone higher.

But not all employers are offering the same range. I ask up front now and select the higher paying ranges to start, then ideally you get an offer from multiple of them at the same time, and you know how high you can push it. By simply going back and forth between them they negotiate for you. Obviously that is a luxury, but by merely knowing the range, even if wide, you greatly increase your ability to land a higher paying job.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#168

Post by yoden »

quietbritishjim wrote: post #41
Raed667 wrote: post #20

Is there anything in this text that would prevent a company from posting offers with very large ranges? "this position salary can be from €35k to 75k€ depending on multiple factors" Such ranges would render it pointless

That doesn't work very well because if you have a large range then most candidates would be disappointed if they got towards the bottom end, even if that made pratical sense. Maybe you could mitigate this by making the range even larger at the bottom end, below the minimum that you would ever pay, but then you'd put off the best people (who are the people that you most want to avoid putting off).

Why would the best candidates be put off by a low minimum? Their salary isn't going to have anything to do with the minimum.

If anything, the best candidates should prefer a wide range. That would mean there is more opportunity for them to distinguish themselves beyond just "years served".

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#169

Post by mrtksn »

londons_explore wrote: post #114
jakey_bakey wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is weird because it's such an easy question to answer. "Performance management isn't an exact science and if everyone knew everyone else's pay, it would be total chaos and nothing would get done."

If everyone knew everyone else's pay, we'd end up paying everyone more money, since those overpaid will complain, and those underpaid will shut up. Such a system will encourage rigid pay schedules (ie. all engineers with 5 years experience get X, non-negotiable). Rigid pay like that advantages poor performers, and good people leave. The end result is a company giving pay transparency ends up either with a much bigger…

This sounds like a pay optimisation for high performers. After all, good people aren't leaving for Mars but to an employer that pays them fairly(since they know what's their fair pay).

Besides, salary is not the only thing that keeps people or makes them leave. High quality management, pleasant work environment, office location and many other things are also part of the decision making.

In fact, hiding salaries is a welfare scheme for low performing businesses. It will eventually degrade the quality of the society since it's not meritocratic and only sustainable due to information disparity between employer and employees.

The margins of a company shouldn't be coming from the employees tricked into working for less than they can get.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#170

Post by suslik »

hughrr wrote: post #68
dijit wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this (as a euro), then I met an American and he explained that he ended up better off in Europe on a "lower" salary because he hadn't considered the hidden costs of living in the USA. He claimed (though I'm certainly no expert) that you have to do your own taxes and set aside money for that; he also claimed that "sales tax" had local, state and federal taxes applied, so while it varies from state to s…

Colleagues of mine in the US work a lot more hours as well. I think our effective spending power in Europe is much better just on that point as well.

This is often an underestimated point. I get 9-5 no overtimes plus 38 vacation days per year (and an ability to purchase more). It would take a lot of money - more than I am likely to get - to convince me to switch to a US working schedule.
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