In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously • Hacker News Board

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#531

Post by i_like_waiting » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 6:51 AM UTC

DeathArrow wrote: post #521

Terry_Roll wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had my only personal UK bank account frozen without warning for weeks. The first I knew of it was when the call centre wouldnt answer the phone for 45mins from the shop where I had just tried to use the card. Had to abandon the process and go home. Next morning, call the bank call centre, do security get told they cant talk to me. The processes to get the account activated was interesting, I couldnt complain to the…

Better than crypto, you can store some money in a foreign bank account with a debit card attached and withdraw from the ATM when you need.

afaik its complicated to create bank account in country where you don't live no? I always had to provide proof of address or something, from that country, which is complicated if you are not millionaire with property here and there.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#532

Post by forty » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 6:55 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #56

forty wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you pay taxes in cash? I don't think it's possible in my country.

> Can you pay taxes in cash? I don't think it's possible in my country. In most countries a tax payment that is due counts as a debt so is covered by legal tender laws, which do require that people accept payment in cash. It may not be an option presented to you, but it is usually legally available to you, if someone is trying to enforce a debt such as payable tax. Note that legal tender laws don't apply to a service…

Thank you and everyone else for the answers, it's quite interesting.

FYI I'm in France and here cash can only be used for taxes under 300€ [1]

Maybe if you don't pay and they start suing then some other laws allows you to reimburse the debt with cash for any amount.

With that said, I know we have some laws to allow everyone (most people?) to have a free bank accounts ("right to an account" [2]), and some other laws that prevent even the state to seize what you have on a bank account for debt reimbursement if it's lower than a certain amount (565.34€ - it's called the "unseizable amount" [3]).

I don't know if it's possible to freeze bank account as they did in Canada. I'd guess they would have to have approval from a Judge.

[1] https://www.impots.gouv.fr/particulier/les-autres-moyens-de-...

[2] https://particuliers.banque-france.fr/page-sommaire/droit-au...

[3] https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1437

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#533

Post by Godel_unicode » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 6:55 AM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #465

Godel_unicode wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a bank account to use cards to pay for things. You also don't need to use an attempt at humor about fat people to add authority to your argument.

It wasn't an attempt at humor. It was a statement of fact. I'm a fat guy. I'm not going to buy cookies there. Try not to invent imaginary offenses on behalf of strangers.

I'm offended. Try not assuming that you're the only person who matters.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#534

Post by sweetbitter » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 6:56 AM UTC

shagie wrote: post #424

abledon wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

loving Hightowers recent foray into BTC on twitter [1] [1] https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower/status/14962234722087403...

There's a question to be asked... From Dan of The Line Goes Up on The Financial Diet - https://youtu.be/8St36RjHd2E?t=757 (please pardon the wall of text transcription) > But the why are crypto and NFTs bad? It's like they're socially destructive and they represent crypto. I really want to stress that NFTs are an extension of crypto and crypto is a socially destructive experiment that goes to great lengths to concent…

Not all cryptographic currencies are deflationary.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#535

Post by YZF » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 6:56 AM UTC

ta_abcd wrote: post #374

ripley12 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think those things are true, and I live in Canada. I strongly support Trudeau's actions on this, and I'm sad that the government took so long to crack down on the "truckers". It's deeply damaging to civil society when a few extremists can shut down a city without consequences.

As a resident of the city in question, lets talk facts(whatever that means) if you care to read on.. Almost nothing was shut down as a result of this protest. You could travel over 99.5% of the city and forget a protest was taking place. Almost anything that was shut down, was shut down voluntarily. Only the 3-4 blocks immediately adjacent to the Parliament buildings (where else do you go to protest your federal gove…

I'm not sure how you read hate into this. It's pretty simple. You break the law, you pay the price. I can't stop my car on a local bridge or by the border and block the road. The police will come and if I don't move my car they'll eventually smash the window and drag me out and then tow the car away.

Nobody hates anyone. Well, that's not true, some people do hate and we've seen some of that. But hate or not hate is orthogonal.

Protest is fine when you don't break the law.

And happy not angry people, seriously? You gotta be at least a little bit angry to park your truck on the street for 3 weeks? You'd think anyways. The things people do when they're happy.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#536

Post by rdevsrex » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 7:01 AM UTC

This is exactly what Maajid Nawaz was talking about on the JRE recently. There is a big push for a centralized digital currency that your employer or the state can prevent you from spending money on certain things.

But even without that, they can still freeze your accounts. Just look at GoFundMe handled the donations intended for the Canadian truckers. This is the infrastructure for turn key totalitarianism.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#537

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 7:01 AM UTC

decafninja wrote: post #256

pessimizer wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply not true. Not only is cashless not at all more convenient than cash for minor purchases, and not only are 10% of the US population unbanked, but in addition the access of third parties to purchase records just alarms people. In my circles, I often see people withdrawing out pocket money on a regular basis for small purchases, and using cash for large peer-to-peer purchases that they're unsure of the ta…

I pay with my credit card even for In the case where they don't accept credit, and I can't be bothered to go make the purchase somewhere else, I'll just tell them to take the dollar bill and keep the change. Not having to deal with loose coins is worth it. How is carrying, paying with, and managing cash in your wallet more convenient than tapping a credit card or your phone?

You are a very tech savvy, generous and hygienic person.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#538

Post by ladallada » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 7:09 AM UTC

I think the article brings good points, but I also think it ignores something important, the alternatives...

You can agree or disagree as much as you want with the current situation, but at some point, there has to be ways for a society to enforce its laws.

Ideally you want to be in a society that define laws collaboratively, where you have a say in them, with a vote for example, and where the laws are applied fairly to everyone, without preferential treatment or specific targeting. And you'd want a process for people to asses and review if the law needs to be enforce in a particular case or not and what that looks like.

But you still need a way to enforce them somehow.

Ok, so let's say a group of people is indeed doing something that isn't right by the laws, and let's accept for arguments sake that you agree with that.

Now how do you enforce the laws on that case?

You could tear gas them, hit them with batons, point guns at them, handcuff them, and physically force them to comply, and lock them up if needed.

Or you can use softer methods, like temporarily freeze their accounts and funds, starving them of resource until they comply.

Yes, both methods are serious, they're meant to force you to follow the laws. So I agree that both are a big deal, but between the two, I think the latter is much better overall, and a lot more civil in my opinion.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#539

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 7:09 AM UTC

decafninja wrote: post #506

CogitoCogito wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She has not been able to convince me of the benefits either. … > She carries the cash, and to my benefit she spots me whenever we encounter a merchant that doesn't accept credit cards since I don't carry cash. I’m having trouble understanding these sentences written together in such short succession. Are you being serious?

Not sure what you mean, but yes I'm serious. I rarely if ever carry cash. Nearly every transaction I make is via credit card. The only time I'll usually have cash is when traveling overseas (for emergencies, in the foreign currency, not USD). I find cash terribly inconvenient and annoying to use. Meanwhile my wife loves using cash. I don't understand it. It's not for any privacy or idealogical reason - she says she j…

70 years after plastic was invented, people are seriously been proud and think of themselves as progressive and tech savvy because they use plastic.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#540

Post by sgjohnson » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 7:13 AM UTC

Trudeau's bank account freeze is the reason why the next time I'll be in the United States, I'll open a US bank account and transfer some savings there. (I'm a European, and not a US person). I've heard that US banks are extremely friendly to non-residents (at least the ones who know to deal with them and hand out a W8-BEN form to fill)

Then my money will be safe. Unless I piss off the United States Federal Government that is. But I don't plan on doing anything that would put me on OFAC list, so I should be fine.

The US is actually a tax haven for non-residents. They have made every country in the world (that matters, anyway) to comply with FATCA and OECD CRS, yet they themselves don't do OECD CRS.