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Get better sleep – Anecdata and sleep tech

adithyabalaji.com

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Re: Get better sleep – Anecdata and sleep tech

#71
post #58
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean isn't half of it that everyone has a chronotype? Shouldn't you just have a fixed, later bedtime. To maximize REM sleep etc?

> I mean isn't half of it that everyone has a chronotype? I still don't buy this as an idea, an unchangeable genetic (?) marker that defines "night person" or "morning person". I think we make choices and habits, and these are really just a part of personality.

I'm almost positive that's bullshit because I spent half of my life as a "night owl", convinced it was just something inherent to me. After my wife took a job that had her waking up at 4am, and the requisite adjustments to her bedtime, I found myself totally fine with going to sleep at 10am or earlier everyday.

In a lot of ways an early bedtime, or an average bedtime, is preferable to staying up to the wee hours, but given the context I couldn't see the benefits until I had experienced it myself for a few months. So in my opinion, if there is some kind of genetic marker for chronatype, it's either not very influential, only expressed in a subset of the populace or largely BS.

Re: Get better sleep – Anecdata and sleep tech

#72
I've posted this before, but a key feature that can help with falling back to sleep and/or insomnia is recognizing that we fall asleep when we warm up, not (necessarily) when we are warm. So if you aren't falling asleep, take off the blankets, make sure the room is as cold as possible/practical and then let yourself get really cold. Like shivering cold. When you can't stand it anymore, then cover yourself up lightly. You'll have a much better chance of falling asleep. This approach has helped several people I know, although not everyone that I've told, as we are all different and insomnia comes from many sources.

Also, try a sleep study! Sleep apnea is not just something that affects people that are overweight - I had it for nearly all my life, turns out, as do my siblings. It isn't a magic cure but my sleeping is probably 3x better with a cpap.

Re: Get better sleep – Anecdata and sleep tech

#73

Don't do this! Sleep tracking/optimisation and generally obsessing over sleep can trigger insomnia for a lot of people. I've had chronic insomnia for two years and I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. If your sleep is good enough, leave it alone.

Tracking and optimization does not necessitate obsession. But if you are predisposed to it, the extra attention can lead people to slip into anxiety.

The same idea would hold for those trying to lose weight. It's all CICO. But would you suggest someone not count calories for fear that this may raise anxiety? Or would you instead propose emotional/anxiety management strategies while pursuing this?

This is why CBT-i is so effective for alleviating insomnia. The primary component is CBT, which is meant to curb anxiety, not unlike the sort that can manifest itself when applying interventions.

That's not to say all so-called "sleep hygiene" is necessarily helpful. There's no universal standard for it and there's no evidence that tracking on a watch or whatever can improve sleep. But obviously some things do help.

Re: Get better sleep – Anecdata and sleep tech

#74
post #56

Having sleep issues, I set up a Zoom H4N pro inside a 1meter cardboard box to track low frequency (sub base) noise disturbances and was blown away. Tracked many culprits down and still working on a few (need new windows and pushing landlord upon that). But instances of say another flat up in the wee hours banging about, you get a loud thud, you awake and none the wise and with my setup, was not only able to identify…

> Even had instance of waking up chocking, which was again due to a short loud thud noise disturbance by another flat.

Do you mean choking, as in gasping for air? This is a sign of potential obstructive sleep apnea, and it feels that solving the external issues is a (complicated) bandaid for something you might want to have a doctor check through a sleep study. (If you haven’t done so already.)

If you had more deep sleep, all these noises wouldn't be bothering you so much. IANAD, etc.

Re: Get better sleep – Anecdata and sleep tech

#75

I've posted this before, but a key feature that can help with falling back to sleep and/or insomnia is recognizing that we fall asleep when we warm up, not (necessarily) when we are warm. So if you aren't falling asleep, take off the blankets, make sure the room is as cold as possible/practical and then let yourself get really cold. Like shivering cold. When you can't stand it anymore, then cover yourself up lightly.…

yes - What happens is that most people fall asleep during the steepest drop toward circadian temperature minimum. Our core temp drops toward sleep onset, and with it cortisol, and melatonin spikes as well. Warming your skin helps promote bloodflow and expels heat, thereby lowering your core temperature (more efficiently if ambient air is cool enough). We tend to lose most heat in our extremities, like the head, hands and feet. This is why pre-warming feet can reduce onset latency.

If you've shifted your circadian rhythm, your core temperature falls later. What may happen then is you'll get hotter in bed as you're expelling more heat in it, and if the material is not particularly breathable it won't be as easy for you to cool down. Anyway, avoiding a shift and keeping a robust circadian rhythm really helps with onset and overall sleep quality. To this end, a consistent waking time, limited total time in bed, and sufficient exposure to sunlight after waking helps.

Re: Get better sleep – Anecdata and sleep tech

#76
Here's my anecdata on getting better sleep. I've struggled with sleep a lot, I still do but not as much to the extent of previous years. I used to be at "Welcome to Hell, prepare to suffer, you'd wish you'd not be awake." (if one would follow this to its logical conclusion, one could see why this is problematic) And it is now at: "If you'd have slept 9 hours instead of 8, you'd probably feel at peak mental condition mate, try to sleep 9 hours, you can feel you could use the extra hour in this particular case :)"

I suffer from two things: being able to fall asleep and waking up after 4 hours.

Here's what I currently do/use/what works:

1. Airpods Max for suppressing noise in my room [1]. Plane flying by? I didn't hear it. The soft white noise is also nice. Playing music at night can sometimes regulate my mood. I don't sleep with it every night, only when I notice things in my room are too loud.

2. 0.3mg melatonin (taken 1 hour before sleep).

3. 10mg CBD (taken 1 hour before sleep).

4. A girlfriend to hug with during the night.

5. Meditation: in most cases this doesn't work at all, but around 10 to 20% of the time it knocks me out cold and then it's all I need.

6. Blue light blocking glasses (Flux for real life :) ).

7. A cold-ish room.

8. A heavy weighted blanket. This is especially helpful when I really feel like turning all the time, the heavy weight tires me out physically.

9. A sleeping mask.

These 9 things completely solve for being able to fall asleep. I don't have issues with it. They partially solve for being able to stay asleep. I sometimes still wake up. However, I have a higher likelihood to fall back asleep because the CBD + melatonin make me feel a bit woozy. Moreover, my girlfriend (if she's around), meditation, my heavy weighted blanket and chill music with Spotify + Airpods Max can all play their part.

[1] I have tinnitus so I need something over my ear as earplugs will amplify my tinnitus. Because of this, I need the best noise cancellation for headphones, and in my testing the Airpods Max won hands down. Moreover, it was the only white noise I could tolerate. I've tested Sony and Bose as well. Their white noise sound is too loud for me to be able to comfortably fall asleep. The white noise of the Airpods Max lowers my tinnitus a bit, but in return I hear white noise, which to me feels like a different tinnitus, albeit a bit nicer. I do suffer a bit in comfort and need to fix that with extra pillows which makes my position in bed a bit weird. If anyone has alternatives for this tip / setup (e.g. something else than the Airpods Max?), I'm curious :)

Re: Get better sleep – Anecdata and sleep tech

#77
post #56

Having sleep issues, I set up a Zoom H4N pro inside a 1meter cardboard box to track low frequency (sub base) noise disturbances and was blown away. Tracked many culprits down and still working on a few (need new windows and pushing landlord upon that). But instances of say another flat up in the wee hours banging about, you get a loud thud, you awake and none the wise and with my setup, was not only able to identify…

This sounds like a way to condition yourself to be unable to sleep except in the most perfect of circumstances; noise level +/- 0.1db, air temperature +/- 0.1C, bed temperature +/- 0.1C, light level +/- whatever.

Sleep is too important

Re: Get better sleep – Anecdata and sleep tech

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally I avoid playing armchair psychologist— I don’t even own an armchair, let alone any significant psychological training. However, I experience anxiety comorbidly with a broader condition I didn’t recognize until 40, and your cycle feels quite familiar. If it is anxiety, a therapist could likely help you implement some CBT exercises to quickly, drastically, and permanently address the symptoms, without drugs, i…

Echoing this, the GP comment was very familiar. I suffer from insomnia related to a mood disorder, and had tried the app approach. What worked best was some time with a psychologist using CBT & DBT methods. Note that DBT likely is only useful in certain circumstances, but CBT strategies will be useful to nearly everyone, and especially align with the type of person who reads this site. I'd always poo-poohed counselin…

Thanks for chiming in. I find counselling useful, but not everybody does!

I enlisted the help of a psychologist advertising quick symptom-relief with his published set of CBT tools without first needing a protracted psychological deep dive. Avoiding imminent, life-altering consequences required fast results. I reckoned we could address less cut-and-dried matters down the line and gave it a shot. The tools worked, but I needed more connection. Our session began by quantifying the efficacy of parts of an exercise with 1-10 scales and a/b comparisons, and ended with him walking me through a tweaked version of an exercise and emailing me a copy in a word document. Exchanges not directly advancing that process frustrated him. A two-sentence response to “how are you doing?” felt inappropriate, like explaining the impact of unreliable transportation on your life to a busy auto mechanic expecting terse, actionable bullet points. He’d almost certainly have preferred a 1-10 answer. He was pretty upfront about it when we started, but I expected less of a departure.

That said, he’d have been perfect for my father— a lovely and very type-A retired engineer. At my mom’s behest, he gave therapy a shot with a trusted family counselor they’d previously used for family therapy. He truly gave it his type-A best, but couldn’t open up. The counselor essentially said that so many years of psychological self-policing rendered talk therapy too difficult to pursue barring a mental health crisis.

Re: Get better sleep – Anecdata and sleep tech

#79
post #59
post #56

Having sleep issues, I set up a Zoom H4N pro inside a 1meter cardboard box to track low frequency (sub base) noise disturbances and was blown away. Tracked many culprits down and still working on a few (need new windows and pushing landlord upon that). But instances of say another flat up in the wee hours banging about, you get a loud thud, you awake and none the wise and with my setup, was not only able to identify…

There’s sound dampening as a route. Have you tried ear plugs? It won’t block all frequencies, but might be a low investment, high return area. Or adding background noise? I’ve used brown noise before and it seemed to help. No idea how to help with the low frequencies though. At least, not that wouldn’t make your apartment/flat a problem to those around it. Sleep is a fundamental need for everyone. For me, it’s migrai…

I'm a very light sleeper. The two biggest things that wake me are movement and noise. After recognizing those, tackling those two issues over the last few years has made an enormous positive impact on my mood, productivity, and overall quality of life.

Not going to detail my life's story here but if you live/sleep with a partner who tosses and turns all night and believe that their movement and getting out of bed is bothering you, run an experiment and sleep in a separate bed for a week. If your sleep quality improves, consider upgrading your bed to separate memory foam mattresses, or have a spare bed you can crash in for nights when you REALLY need to sleep. If your SO loves you, they will understand.

White noise. We used to run a box fan all night just for the noise but it turns out that those things use a tremendous amount of electricity. We switched to white noise machines which generate pretty much the same sound but use almost no electricity in comparison. The white noise machines are better than a smartphone because they have bigger speakers that can generate the mid-to-low range noise that phones cannot. Years ago we bought the "Lectrofan" machines on Amazon but those are now crazy expensive. (We paid like $15 back in the day, now they are $43-$50.) Your average HNer could probably rig up something just as effective with an old ipod and set of computer desktop speakers for free.

Earplugs, if you can stand them. I like the Howard Leight MAX earplugs. I buy them in bulk and stash them everywhere around the house, garage, and in my car. For sleeping, I reuse one pair for up to a week.

Re: Get better sleep – Anecdata and sleep tech

#80

Don't do this! Sleep tracking/optimisation and generally obsessing over sleep can trigger insomnia for a lot of people. I've had chronic insomnia for two years and I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. If your sleep is good enough, leave it alone.

This is true ONLY if anxiety is a major trigger for poor sleep/insomnia. If so, then you need to treat your anxiety BEFORE trying to do any other sleep optimization experiments.

This comment got a lot of attention but the fact is that there are almost infinite causes for poor sleep. Many of us would do very well to critically investigate those causes and work to address them if necessary or desired, just like troubleshooting any other kind of problem.

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