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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

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Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#271

Post by _hhkg »

mabbo wrote: post #246
_hhkg wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the thought, but I’d raise the same thing I mentioned in the other comment, that I’m here for humanitarian reasons rather than simply trying to “strike it rich” or something. My ethics and morals are incredibly important to me and you suggesting that just by merely being present in this country without knowing why is in someway selling myself out is presumptuous. I’ll add something else, as someone who h…

You know, I do owe you an apology. That was snarky as hell and I don't know your situation. Sorry.

Not a problem, appreciate it

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#272

Post by netsharc »

lm28469 wrote: post #236
netsharc wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A redditor living there once responded to "why would you be okay living in a country with slave labor?" by asking the commenter: who made the stuff they owned. Who mined the minerals for your electronics (probably exploited miners), who made your clothes (probably underpaid Bangladeshis). So the difference between the average Westerner and a Dubaian is the distance the slaves are to the consumer.

It's called whataboutism and is a logical fallacy. If you feel good directly interacting with literal slaves I'm sure you would resort to this kind of mental gymnastic though

I would feel bad seeing the construction workers in the Middle Eastern countries (I have only been outside the airport in one of those countries once, for a few hours), but I'll be honest, I know my electronics and clothes are probably made by someone underpaid and overworked, but I don't feel very guilty about it. And I would hazard a guess that you have similar electronics and clothes, and you're not worried about it.

And whataboutism is also whataboutism, if I understand Wikipedia correctly. If I can call you out, you think being waited on by slaves is bad but give it a few thousand miles, then there's no mental gymnastics going on? Yeah we in the West^W capitalist world can pull the mental gymnastics and say "Well, it's the evil capitalist system, what can we do", oh hey, welcome to the class!

> Some commentators have defended the usage of whataboutism and tu quoque in certain contexts. Whataboutism can provide necessary context into whether or not a particular line of critique is relevant or fair. In international relations, behavior that may be imperfect by international standards may be quite good for a given geopolitical neighborhood, and deserves to be recognized as such.[12]

> Christian Christensen, Professor of Journalism in Stockholm, argues that the accusation of whataboutism is itself a form of the tu quoque fallacy, as it dismisses criticisms of one's own behavior to focus instead on the actions of another, thus creating a double standard. Those who use whataboutism are not necessarily engaging in an empty or cynical deflection of responsibility: whataboutism can be a useful tool to expose contradictions, double standards, and hypocrisy.[82][83]

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#273

Post by throw_m239339 »

retube wrote: post #5

All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.

> culturally hyper conservative,

Dubai is literally one of the biggest prostitution hub on the planet for western prostitutes. Google "yatching".

"server human rights abuse" is an understatement, it's straight out slavery practiced there, legal slavery.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#274

Post by dredmorbius »

titanomachy wrote: post #182
Scoundreller wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lynx is the best reader for the economist.

I don't love reading long articles in fixed-width fonts.

Then pipeline to a PS/PDF generator.

For most modern Web publishing, this is mostly a matter of finding and extracting the block, as well as metadata (title, byline, dateline).

html-xml-tools is quite useful for this.

I'd created a WaPo extractor that reduced pagesize by about 95%, stripped the nags and paywalls, etc. Endpoint was HTML, but that could just as easily have generated PDF or ePub if I'd wanted.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#275

Post by Chris2048 »

pradn wrote: post #193
spiderfarmer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After some bad experiences I will never visit an Arab country again. They'll have to do something against the sexism, constant heckling and the bad state of law before I even think about going there. Or they can do whatever they want, they don't have to change just for me. I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big…

I went to Egypt a few months ago and was met with incredibly warm people, with perhaps even an excess of hospitality. Yes, you do get charged extra for being a tourist at the tourist spots. But that's only a small part of the country. That said, I am Indian and was met as an Egyptian most of the time (people would start speaking to me in Arabic 70% of the time), so I had the benefit of fitting in well. The delicious…

But are you male or female?

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#276

Post by lowbloodsugar »

dogman144 wrote: post #258
apohn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as somebody who lived in one of those Middle Eastern countries for a good period of my life. I'm not a white person and at that time I didn't have a US/European passport, so I didn't lead an extra privalaged life there. Here's what you can hear about the USA. 1)Endless suburban sprawl, resulting in massive environmental destruction. Illegal immigrants heavily involved in the construction industry, leading…

Qatar is not Dubai, but when was the last time you heard of 6,500 migrant workers dying building a group of soccer stadiums/olympic village/large public works in the USA? That is to say, that region's rep comes from a bit more than stereotypes or a filtering bubble.

No post body was provided.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#277

Post by apohn »

BeetleB wrote: post #213
Workaccount2 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the issue for me is that there are places where people greatly exaggerate their claims, and there are places where those seemingly exaggerated claims are legitimate. Given that, I don't think I have ever read anything good about the UAE, either editorial or comments from expats. Maybe from insta influencers who wanted to pad their hollow "luxury life" existance.

This whole thread is ridiculous. The "I've never heard..." statements are merely statements about the diversity (or lack thereof) sources people get their information from. I've lived in the Middle East. I know plenty of people who live there, or lived there, and love it. Even those who were forced to leave. I know plenty of others who work very hard to get a good white collar job there, and most who succeed did not…

>I know lots of people who would have been stuck in extremely low social mobility situations in their home countries, and who only managed to go up in social class by moving to one of these Middle Eastern countries, and earning good money and by doing honest work - the last of which wasn't an option in their own countries.

Honestly, I think this is a really difficult topic to discuss on the internet. It's too easy to misinterpret any "Their situation is awful, but was even worse before" as some sort of a justification, rather than seeing it as just being a statement of how things really are for a lot of people on this planet.

Due to where my family is originally from, I know people in the labor class in UAE who basically scarified their lives and bodies so their children could get an education and a white collar job. It was an terrible choice they had to make. Many people are forced to make the same choices in Western countries, but it's not in the news to the same degree. It's hard to have a rational discourse about life when the choices people have are starvation or suicide in their own country, or a lifetime of manual labor in a foreign country for wages that do nothing for them, but a lot for their families back home.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#278

Post by oh_sigh »

pradn wrote: post #193
spiderfarmer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After some bad experiences I will never visit an Arab country again. They'll have to do something against the sexism, constant heckling and the bad state of law before I even think about going there. Or they can do whatever they want, they don't have to change just for me. I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big…

I went to Egypt a few months ago and was met with incredibly warm people, with perhaps even an excess of hospitality. Yes, you do get charged extra for being a tourist at the tourist spots. But that's only a small part of the country. That said, I am Indian and was met as an Egyptian most of the time (people would start speaking to me in Arabic 70% of the time), so I had the benefit of fitting in well. The delicious…

I'm guessing you're also a male, since I've literally never heard a good story about a female traveler without a male companion in Egypt or the Maghreb in general.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#279

Post by TuringNYC »

rayiner wrote: post #170
laurent92 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are afraid of the lack of rule of law, there are not many countries we need to avoid. Japan has a 99.995% of inculpation after their police interview. And that has to do with the fact that their interview can lawfully last for 22 days, renewable. You can’t even avoid USA: 95% of jailmates are there upon self-admission of guilt without external proof, ie. without objective proof besides self-incrimination.

You’re incorrect as to the US, and I suspect as to Japan as well. Lots of criminals in America plead guilty, but that doesn’t mean that there’s no “external proof” of guilt. Cops are lazy and criminals are dumb. So what you end up with in nearly all cases is that cops make arrests in easy cases with tons of evidence. Confronted with the video tape, cell phone records, etc., the accused then pleads guilty. Rarely do y…

On this topic, this literally happened this week in New Jersey: https://twitter.com/closequarters92/status/14936736252784558...

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#280

Post by Chris2048 »

1024core wrote: post #214

Halfway down the article you find: > Cornelius undoubtedly committed fraud. ... He did, however, admit that he used money for riskier endeavours than those for which it was lent. The bank provided credit for short-term needs, but it was instead used to fund unauthorised longer-term projects such as the Pakistan refinery and investments relating to the Plantation. I am sorry, but play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

What surprises me is:

1) "Three plain-clothes policemen arrested Cornelius as he left the airport."

So, if he hadn't left the airport, he would have been safe?

2) "The bank convinced an English court to hand over all three of Cornelius’s properties in London"

Given his denial of a lawyer etc I'm surprised that an English court agreed to carry on without him. Where are the requests to allow him to participate?

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