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New York is using cameras with microphones to ticket loud cars

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Re: New York is using cameras with microphones to ticket loud cars

#441

Post by kilotaras »

mikestew wrote: post #391
barbazoo wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take two pictures then maybe, one from the front, one from the back. But also, unless the vehicle was stolen, why not put the burden of proof on the owner. Don't people know who they're giving their car to? I think that's how it works in many European countries. If the car is stolen, just file a report.

why not put the burden of proof on the owner. In the U. S., I'm innocent until proven guilty: prove it was me. No, I'm not telling you who was driving, because my lawyer said something something 5th amendment. But that's the theory , as this not-a-lawyer understands it. In practice, you'll just pay the ticket because the future of civil rights law does not rest on determining who was driving the car that day, and you…

> I'm innocent until proven guilty: prove it was me.

This is trivially circumvented via "attach fine to car" and "driving in a car with fine attached is illegal." (AFAIK that's how it works in Ukraine).

End result is the same.

Re: New York is using cameras with microphones to ticket loud cars

#442

Post by kilotaras »

daenz wrote: post #70
drsnow wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how are they unconstitutional?

Not OP and can't speak to constitutionality, but red light cameras drive some perverse incentives. There have been a number of verified reports[0] that cities with red light cameras shorten the length of the yellow light in order to get more tickets, and therefore revenue. 0. https://time.com/3505994/red-light-camera-problems-tickets/

IMO all Pigovian taxes and fines (alcohol, tobacco, speed fines, etc.) should go in special pool and then distributed to citizens.

Fixes moral hazard pretty good.

Re: New York is using cameras with microphones to ticket loud cars

#443

Post by raxxorrax »

e40 wrote: post #57
udfalkso wrote: post #4

One egregiously loud motorcycle rolling through manhattan can be a nuisance to literally millions of people. This is unreasonable and a ticketing system like this makes a ton of sense. Police enforcement could probably solve the issue just as effectively. Cops ignore loud honking and loud cars when its right in front of them. If they would just stop ignoring such things the frequency would surely go down as well.

There's a freeway about a mile from my house. Summer nights with the windows open, I can easily be awakened by a very loud motorcycle. The freeway is raised and I'm in a sort of canyon (no line of sight to freeway, though!!). Maybe the acoustics are just perfect for my bedroom, but I doubt it's just me. There are probably a million people within earshot of this noise. Lest people think I'm a motorcycle hater: I owned…

I believe reaching millions of people with their sound is exactly what some people like to do. Never understood it but there are always some people like that. Especially mopeds are often severe offenders.

Not a fan of camera surveillance for such infractions though.

Re: New York is using cameras with microphones to ticket loud cars

#444

Post by voska »

renewiltord wrote: post #439
mikestew wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "loud pipes save(d) lives", your insurance company would give you a discount for your man-child exhaust. And if you want anecdata, I've ridden hundreds of thousands of miles in every U. S. state, most of Canada, and elsewhere. Most of those miles have been with the exhaust that came with the bike when it rolled out of the factory. I've never been sideswiped, nor even once considered that a loud exhaust would do an…

I haven’t even heard of my insurance giving me a discount for wearing a full face helmet instead of a bucket helmet. Actually, is there a single thing that insurance gives you a discount for? Like, I’m with GEICO and as far as I can tell, it’s only age of license without accident or ticket that counts. Either every factor is a wash or insurance companies are keeping the spread as profit on their side or they have no…

They don't give you a discount for a better helmet because it's cheaper for them if you're dead vs paying the hospital bills for your injuries.

Re: New York is using cameras with microphones to ticket loud cars

#445

Post by rosndo »

Reason077 wrote: post #435
cudgy wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the pedestrians and people eating outside at restaurants? Or people in old houses with poor insulation and single paned windows? However, I don’t like the idea of automatically ticketing people with technology devices alone despite the obnoxiously loud noise pollution from these vehicles. Police can easily hear these vehicles and pull them over for a violation.

> ”Police can easily hear these vehicles and pull them over for a violation.” In practice this doesn’t happen, however, at least here in the UK. Police are not issued with equipment to measure noise levels, and on a busy road it can be difficult to identify (provably and conclusively) which vehicles are making the noise. Which is exactly why technology like these “noise cameras” are needed!

> In practice this doesn’t happen, however, at least here in the UK

Especially in the nice areas of London you could probably drive for years without numberplates and nobody would ever stop you.

Re: New York is using cameras with microphones to ticket loud cars

#447

Post by aembleton »

causality0 wrote: post #430
udfalkso wrote: post #4

One egregiously loud motorcycle rolling through manhattan can be a nuisance to literally millions of people. This is unreasonable and a ticketing system like this makes a ton of sense. Police enforcement could probably solve the issue just as effectively. Cops ignore loud honking and loud cars when its right in front of them. If they would just stop ignoring such things the frequency would surely go down as well.

The apologists always scream about how "cars will run us over if we're not loud enough to shake the teeth out of your skull!" but I've searched and not found one single study that supports that claim.

I've searched and cannot find one single apologist that screams "cars will run us over if we're not loud enough to shake the teeth out of your skull!"

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22cars+will+run+us+over+if+we%27r...

Re: New York is using cameras with microphones to ticket loud cars

#448

Post by rascul »

renewiltord wrote: post #440
rascul wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally do not hear loud vehicles directly next to me while driving down the road. Not cars or motorcycles. My own radio, tire noise, and engine noise is enough to drown out all but the absolute loudest, except maybe when I'm going very slow.

Wow that’s a loud car. What’s the decibel level inside at highway speed? My Forester is loud to sit in on the freeway but what you’re describing is crazy loud. Can’t even imagine it.

It's not overly loud. I just don't hear other loud vehicles without the radio off and the windows open, and I don't typically have the radio off and the windows open. This has always been the case for me in any vehicle at highway speeds.

Re: New York is using cameras with microphones to ticket loud cars

#449

Post by ck2 »

Try living in a state with no car inspection and it's absolute hell. So many cars and trucks either without mufflers or improperly working mufflers. There are even people who try to keep driving around after someone has stolen their cat convertor which is insanely loud.

And having grown up for decades before booming car stereos were even a thing, the lack of enforcement is unbelievable. It would be one thing on the road but people have zero care/respect to drive into apartment complexes at all times of the night at volumes you can hear blocks away.

We used to seize cars for repeat noise violations but some judge ruled that was illegal, some kind of "free speech" violation by the city/state. Which is insane.

My only concern with an automated system is false positives. I've gotten automated red-light tickets from in and out of state on my car when I've never driven to the actual city/location it was cited, it was a bad plate scan and I have to stop and dispute it online or they keep fining.

Re: New York is using cameras with microphones to ticket loud cars

#450

Post by ubermonkey »

kilotaras wrote: post #441
mikestew wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why not put the burden of proof on the owner. In the U. S., I'm innocent until proven guilty: prove it was me. No, I'm not telling you who was driving, because my lawyer said something something 5th amendment. But that's the theory , as this not-a-lawyer understands it. In practice, you'll just pay the ticket because the future of civil rights law does not rest on determining who was driving the car that day, and you…

> I'm innocent until proven guilty: prove it was me. This is trivially circumvented via "attach fine to car" and "driving in a car with fine attached is illegal." (AFAIK that's how it works in Ukraine). End result is the same.

The argument is not that a photo-enforcement mechanism couldn't be structured to abide by US law. The issue is that, thus far, the only attempts have run afoul of foundational elements of our legal structure because the towns/counties who have tried have tied the photo-enforcement tickets to the existing criminal statutes about driving.

If it were a civil infraction, with no license points, they'd have a better standing, but nobody has bothered to take that path.

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