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Pedestrian deaths spike in U.S. as reckless driving surges

nytimes.com

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Re: Pedestrian deaths spike in U.S. as reckless driving surges

#301

Post by iso1631 »

avianlyric wrote: post #242
iso1631 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The changes in Highway Code really just say that cars should give way to pedestrians that are crossing minor roads, while walking down a major road. That was always the case, see Rule 182 from the 2006 version for example https://web.archive.org/web/20060418012127/http://www.highwa... "turning at road junctions; give way to pedestrians who are already crossing the road into which you are turning" The change was you…

Yes I know. But the change makes it clear you shouldn’t impede continuing traffic (including pedestrians walking down the pavement), and you should consider the pavement part of the highway (which it is), rather than a separate part of the road which automotive traffic is allowed to cut through with impunity. Obviously cars should always give way to pedestrians in the roadway, the alternative is running them down. I…

Cars of course have used the pavement as part of the highway for years, constantly driving and blocking it, mowing down about 40 pedestrians a week on the "safety" of the pavement, just for the convenience of the driver.

The police nor council do anything about it.

> I don’t think we need a Highway Code rule to make it clear why that’s a bad idea.

While the UK is far better than the wild west of the US (pedestrians killed per million people per year. UK=5, New Jersey=22, New Mexico=47), there's still about 1 pedestrian a day killed by drivers, and 10 per day seriously injured.

20 children are killed or seriously injured every week for the "crime" of walking, almost all in towns where there is no need to be traveling more than 15mph (2 miles to get out of town or onto a major artery road, at 30mph that takes 4 minutes with no traffic lights, at 15mph that's 8 minutes)

Re: Pedestrian deaths spike in U.S. as reckless driving surges

#302

Post by lamontcg »

giantg2 wrote: post #297
lamontcg wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would imagine that many of the fatalities include drivers following the law and exercising reasonable care (as based on society's expectations) We've got extremely low expectations.

Possibly. I feel split on this. I believe we need stronger testing. But I also wonder, if someone is following the law (which is vast), what would be the other steps for reasonable care?

They're generally not following the law. But they do something like turn right on red without stopping and we consider that a "mistake". Or they do stop but they have 1,000 yard stare off to their left and they hit a pedestrian legally in the crosswalk. Or they're just speeding and we consider 15 over to try to beat the light perfectly reasonable because everyone does it. Being distracted and driving a bit too fast will also be viewed as "accidental" because again it is so common.

We actually have a very high tolerance for vehicles breaking the law (but then whine endlessly about that bike we saw blowing a red light).

I'd argue that if you wind up killing anyone that you were necessarily negligent in your driving and someone killing someone else when they were actually taking due care is extraordinarily unlikely. Pedestrian deaths should really be automatic negligent homicide charges unless it can be proven that the pedestrian just ran out in the road and got hit or something through their own negligence.

Re: Pedestrian deaths spike in U.S. as reckless driving surges

#303

Post by randy909 »

dylan604 wrote: post #223
hervature wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has driven quite extensively in SF, LA, NYC, and Boston, I don't know why Bostonians are adamant that their traffic and drivers are as bad as these other cities. My #1 frustration with Boston traffic is how "polite" drivers are. Multiple times, I've had the last car in a string of cars stop at a green light to let me turn left which is probably the most infuriating/stupid thing you can do. What I will…

>(Davis Square - where 7 streets meet) This doesn't sound very square to me. I'm totally amazed at how some cities do not have protected left turn signals. During high traffic times, this means you can litterally never have a gap. Which leads to the situation where once the light turns red, 3-4 cars wanting to turn left run the red light. LA was the worst of the places I've experienced this.

> During high traffic times, this means you can literally never have a gap.

It is legal to enter an intersection (i.e. cross the white line) when your light is not red. Therefore at least one car can turn left legally per light cycle. Agree completely that this isn't good enough.

Re: Pedestrian deaths spike in U.S. as reckless driving surges

#304

Post by giantg2 »

ahoho wrote: post #175
ejb999 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The high rate of pedestrian deaths is a result of policy regarding road design, pedestrian infrastructure and lenient criminal charges. The driving culture is also to blame. Driving is a god given right. Cars equal freedom, and the bigger the better. Pedestrians are a nuisance and cyclists are the enemy. Yea, but almost none of those things have changed in the last two year - so does nothing to explain the spike in…

You’re parroting unfounded conservative talking points. We never defunded the police. Any cuts were minor and temporary https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/cities-vowed-2020-cut-po...

The parent is not just talking about budget cuts. There were policy updates to not pursue most traffic violations and other minor offenses at the beginning of the pandemic (or to take down the info, but not into custody), like in Philly.

There has also been a push to do away with pretextual stops, which includes a lot of traffic law. Not sure that has been wide spread enough, and may also be too recent, to impact these numbers.

Re: Pedestrian deaths spike in U.S. as reckless driving surges

#305

Post by giantg2 »

stirbot wrote: post #164
ejb999 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The high rate of pedestrian deaths is a result of policy regarding road design, pedestrian infrastructure and lenient criminal charges. The driving culture is also to blame. Driving is a god given right. Cars equal freedom, and the bigger the better. Pedestrians are a nuisance and cyclists are the enemy. Yea, but almost none of those things have changed in the last two year - so does nothing to explain the spike in…

I agree with you regarding lax enforcement, especially in the last few years. But this is also cultural. We have the technology to enforce traffic laws via sensors but even then they are implemented they are often removed by the next local election or blown to bits with buckshot. My state has targets for acceptable rates of annual pedestrian deaths when designing intersections. I find the fact that we elect to sacrif…

With the history of red light camera abuses, I don't find it very surprising that the public is leery of automated enforcement.

Re: Pedestrian deaths spike in U.S. as reckless driving surges

#306

Post by CalRobert »

dncornholio wrote: post #270
CalRobert wrote: post #136

Drivers are the leading cause of dead kids. But for some reason we completely ignore it, while focusing on gun violence (which is also bad, to be clear). I really don't know a solution aside from moving to a country that's better designed. The US seems too far gone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul_xzyCDT98

Funny thing is, The Netherlands used to have infra that looked more like the US once, but we almost completely rebuild all the infrastructure in our towns and cities during the 80's. It's not too late, it 'just' needs a lot of investment. The biggest problem is US culture around cars and mobility IMO. Better public transport is a nice start.

Yeah, though the Netherlands started before they had gone _too_ far down the sprawling hellscape path. Even with better infra, it's a rotten situation where you need to go 2 miles from home to buy milk. Hopefully we can let nature reclaim the suburbs and increase density in the cities.

Jason Slaughter of NotJustBikes also pointed out that in NL they at least had an entire generation or two of people who remembered a different way of living, without being car dependent. All those people have died out in the US now, and even people in their mid-80's came of age when the US was going whole hog on car dependency.

I want better for the US but I'm not optimistic. A new city built of whole cloth (maybe culdesac.com can do it?) might have a chance.

Re: Pedestrian deaths spike in U.S. as reckless driving surges

#307

Post by CalRobert »

dylan604 wrote: post #223
hervature wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has driven quite extensively in SF, LA, NYC, and Boston, I don't know why Bostonians are adamant that their traffic and drivers are as bad as these other cities. My #1 frustration with Boston traffic is how "polite" drivers are. Multiple times, I've had the last car in a string of cars stop at a green light to let me turn left which is probably the most infuriating/stupid thing you can do. What I will…

>(Davis Square - where 7 streets meet) This doesn't sound very square to me. I'm totally amazed at how some cities do not have protected left turn signals. During high traffic times, this means you can litterally never have a gap. Which leads to the situation where once the light turns red, 3-4 cars wanting to turn left run the red light. LA was the worst of the places I've experienced this.

The "square" presumably refers to the place (like a town square) and not the streets themselves.

Re: Pedestrian deaths spike in U.S. as reckless driving surges

#308

Post by giantg2 »

beerandt wrote: post #245
vinay427 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s the opposite of the situation in the US It varies by city/state, as some other comments noted. In any case, in a few smaller towns I've been to in the UK, there are numerous crossings that seem incredibly unsafe to me from both a US and western European perspective. In much of the latter regions, marked crossings that aren't full-on zebra crossings with pedestrian-priority are incredibly rare, while these cros…

The placement of crossings is less about giving pedestrians right of way, and more about designating places where it's safe to cross. Unfortunately, the opposite often happens due to political pressure. People know that a blind curve is dangerous for pedestrians and demand a crosswalk and signs/ signals, which only encourages more people to cross at the unsafe location. (Even if it now has lots of paint on the paveme…

"The typical US laws are mostly misunderstood: Even where vehicles have the right of way, they have an obligation to yield to avoid hitting a pedestrian, just as having right of way doesn't permit you to intentionally cause a wreck."

Worth repeating.

Re: Pedestrian deaths spike in U.S. as reckless driving surges

#309

Post by edmcnulty101 »

QuarterReptile wrote: post #191
edmcnulty101 wrote: post #102

Why is this a reckless driving question and not a reckless pedestrian question?

At the risk of taking seriously a sarcastic comment (and doing it by responding instead of downvoting): it's a combination of higher value land use and the magnitude of outcomes. Drivers kill people, make noise, pollution, smells, are expensive to accommodate, and take up a lot of space. People may dent cars while they are being killed, do not have loud engines, have negligible emissions, and generally improve places…

To me it stands to reason that the armored 4 ton machine wins the battle every time against a small fleshy pedestrian.

So the pedestrian should really be the one avoiding the auto.

Re: Pedestrian deaths spike in U.S. as reckless driving surges

#310

Post by dqv »

_dain_ wrote: post #275
dqv wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because pedestrians have the intrinsic motivation of not wanting to die. Do they? Where I live, at night, no one ever wears reflectors, save a few cyclists. It seems like people don’t think about this at all. You’re walking around at night and someone driving a car doesn’t see you until it’s too late. I think there is some merit to asking the question about how pedestrians can be safer. I’m happy to practice what I…

Why on earth should the responsibility be on pedestrians to wear reflectors? That is _preposterous_. What's next, they should wear license plates and helmets? Something is deeply wrong about the built environment that such an indignity is even considered. If pedestrians cannot get around at night without wearing ridiculous fluorescent outfits because of the danger of cars, then the problem is with the cars, not the p…

>If pedestrians cannot get around at night without wearing ridiculous fluorescent outfits because of the danger of cars

They can get around just fine, they just don't want to walk further to get to the crosswalks, which is fine, but I think it's reasonable to ask people to wear reflectors as a trade off. I also can't exactly expect drivers new to the area to intuitively know where someone might decide to cross at night. Thus reflectors. When I see someone walking on the sidewalk, I slow down (even though it's not necessary given the amount of space between the road and the sidewalk). If I can't see that anyone is on the sidewalk at night, how am I going to know to do that? I want people to wear reflectors so I can give them a lot of space to feel safe not because I think it's their fault if they get hit.

>If pedestrians cannot get around at night without wearing ridiculous fluorescent outfits because of the danger of cars, then the problem is with the cars, not the pedestrians' fashion choices.

Yes, but saying this doesn't just magically make the problem go away. I also think people should wear reflectors at night regardless. When I'm walking around at night, in low-visibility areas, people seem to appear out of nowhere and I'd prefer to keep my distance.

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