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Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

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Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#121

Post by tomlockwood »

rsj_hn wrote: post #109
tomlockwood wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This shoplifting epidemic is happening because no one is going to jail for this. Is that true? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/17/walmart-shop...

I don't think that they literally meant "no one", but rather that a small group of people commit a majority of the crimes, and if those people were behind bars, the crimes rates would fall back to normal levels. There is evidence to support this thesis. First, we do know that a small group of people commit most of the crimes. Second, we see that in the U.S. when we let people out of institutions the crime rate went u…

Argentinian approach to crime and inflation! Perfect :D

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#123

Post by nine_k »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #116
zbentley wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sympathetic to your grandparent statement (closing stores can really screw their patrons), but the comparison to firefighters is apples to oranges. Firefighting is a civic utility-everyone contributes a little bit for the service. Grocery stores are not, in most locales.

If no one fights fires, they burn uncontrollably and we all die. If no grocery stores operate, we all starve and die. Feeding the people is the same level of protection as fighting fires.

Expenses of firefighting are paid from the state budget. When expenses of grocery stores (dispensaries?) will be paid from the state budget, the comparison would stand.

Also, shoplifting is like calling firefighters to water your lawn, because, see, it's free!

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#124

Post by ahh »

notthemessiah wrote: post #85
ahh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only 1/5th of those prisoners are there for drug-crime (and I assume you believe as I do that much drug-related crime isn't worth the arrest?) then isn't that in fact evidence that our population commits substantially more _real_ crime than in other countries? If so, then yes, let's lock them up. "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing.

We have a high recidivism rate because are correctional institutions have no intention of correcting anything about our inmates. California profits off of private prison labor, and have no incentive to provide a path to recovery from a life of crime.

That's nice. Feel free to fix the prison system at any time; if the people who come out don't commit more crimes, I'll be happy.

In the meantime, imprison the people who do commit crimes, and if they do so again after they're out, imprison them again.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#125

Post by kcplate »

tomlockwood wrote: post #25

I'd like anyone who considers more harsh jail punishments to be the solution to consider that the USA has the highest per-capita prison population in the world. Only 1/5 of those prisoners is in there for drug-related crime. Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

> Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

Harsher than “no punishment” might

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#126

Post by choko »

tomlockwood wrote: post #110
berberous wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is a huge country, with a state and local laws that are inconsistent over both geography and time. It can be true that we over jail and impose longer sentences in some places, in some past eras, and/or for some crimes, to no good effect, while also in other places, other times, or for certain crimes, under punish such that there is zero deterrent effect when there needs to be at least some.

Since America is such a huge outlier in terms of jailing people, my thinking is that we ought to compare America to other similar countries and see what the differences are. Pressing the "harsher punishments" button would seem premature, in my view.

You should not be comparing America as a whole to most other countries. The states have historically had more autonomy resulting in more diverse sets of laws and cultures than most other countries. If you must compare, I think state level data would be a more fair comparison.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#127

Post by notthemessiah »

WalterGR wrote: post #90
notthemessiah wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a high recidivism rate because are correctional institutions have no intention of correcting anything about our inmates. California profits off of private prison labor, and have no incentive to provide a path to recovery from a life of crime.

Which states don’t profit off of prisons?

Many industrialized countries have banned forced prison labor, but still allow some form of voluntary labor. The 13th Amendment enshrines it at the highest law of the land of the United States, and prisoners are often punished for refusing forced labor. Forced penal labor is also embraced by many other authoritarian countries like Communist China and Vietnam.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#128

Post by yibg »

nine_k wrote: post #111
yibg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I mean why have police at all? Just let the market sort out all out. If people keep getting shot, we’ll eventually the neighborhood will empty out and no more shootings!

People would pool money and hire a private protection agency then.

Yea that sure works great in countries with ineffective law enforcement.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#130

Post by MattGaiser »

otikik wrote: post #115
MattGaiser wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider another few possibilities. 1. Americans are just more likely to be criminals. 2. Other nations may be equally or even more ineffective at tackling crime. The assumption that jail doesn't work rests on the assumption that other nations track crime as effectively and that their people are equally criminal.

Here’s another option one: 3. The American system is putting a lot of innocent people behind bars.

While letting the actual criminals go free for those crimes? Possibly.
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