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Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

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Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#91
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing. I'm not defending stealing, I'm saying for all crime in America, the deterrent of jail doesn't appear to be working. That button has already been pressed, hard.

> the deterrent of jail doesn't appear to be working. Deterrent ? It does work, the people in jail are not stealing

The USA has the most people in the world in the jail and this article is about the rising shoplifting problem. You are correct, those people that are currently in jail are not stealing.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#92
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people aren't shoplifting to get their needs and to propose such so am ignorance of the situation. There was a wonderful and detailed article a while back about a baby formula shoplifting ring in the south that shows how this works. The people who are doing the shoplifting are often drug addicts who are promised cash payments or more drugs if they will go and shoplift by a middle man who then stockpiles the goo…

This sounds like exactly the kind of this someone who doesn't want to confront millions of their countrymen living in desperation would tell themselves. No idea if it's really true, but it is suspicious how there's always a good explanation that something that looks like terrible injustice actually isn't.

What do they do with the vast majority of LV clothes that don't fit? The smash and grabber doesn't appear to stop by the changing room to try them on first.

Perhaps they drop off the ill fitting clothes the next day with a note.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#93

Let the market handle this. Simply close stores with high theft rates, which will happen anyway since they’re unprofitable.

Yea I mean why have police at all? Just let the market sort out all out. If people keep getting shot, we’ll eventually the neighborhood will empty out and no more shootings!

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#94

I'd like anyone who considers more harsh jail punishments to be the solution to consider that the USA has the highest per-capita prison population in the world. Only 1/5 of those prisoners is in there for drug-related crime. Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

How many of those are recent convicts vs people serving long sentences piling up?

I feel like no one advocates for a middle ground. I usually don’t believe in locking people up excessively. I also don’t believe in effectively legalizing crime by never persecuting petty theft.

If it’s your second or third time shoplifting in bulk, I think a 6 month prison sentence is appropriate. There needs to be some penalty to disincentivize such behavior.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#95

Current events, especially in America, has created a situation where I think theft has become ethical to sustain oneself. They may let us eat cake, but we may opt to eat the rich instead. Maybe you don't trust the stories over on /r/antiwork or /r/workreform but I think if even 1% is true, America is rapidly spiralling into a direction where a society can't be sustained. For a large part of the USA population, young…

Why are people with low incomes and often drug habits moving to a city with exorbitant rent. With a couple roommates and a retail job you can easily afford rent in large parts of the country.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to incarcerate a first-time shoplifter, but a habitual thief deserves to spend some time in jail, and the threat of jail will deter people from being habitual thieves.

> the threat of jail will deter people from being habitual thieves. It'd appear though that given probability, an American is more likely to be in jail than the citizen of any other country, but even with this high threat of jail, these crimes seem to be on the rise.

America is a huge country, with a state and local laws that are inconsistent over both geography and time.

It can be true that we over jail and impose longer sentences in some places, in some past eras, and/or for some crimes, to no good effect, while also in other places, other times, or for certain crimes, under punish such that there is zero deterrent effect when there needs to be at least some.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#97
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is stealing from someone like Walmart, who post record profits every year, pay employees so little they are on food stamps, engage in union busting etc etc really immoral?

Yes.

So Walmart profit is more important to you than people not starving?

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#98
post #43

I'd like anyone who considers more harsh jail punishments to be the solution to consider that the USA has the highest per-capita prison population in the world. Only 1/5 of those prisoners is in there for drug-related crime. Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

If only 1/5th of those prisoners are there for drug-crime (and I assume you believe as I do that much drug-related crime isn't worth the arrest?) then isn't that in fact evidence that our population commits substantially more _real_ crime than in other countries? If so, then yes, let's lock them up. "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing.

Some other countries don’t consider possession of a minor amount of drugs, clearly intended for personal use, “a drug crime”. Of course your numbers will be higher than others, if you count things differently.

Treat addiction like an illness, not a crime, and your numbers will fall in line with the rest of the countries, quickly. Moreso if you get rid of those for-profit prison system while you are at it.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#99

I'd like anyone who considers more harsh jail punishments to be the solution to consider that the USA has the highest per-capita prison population in the world. Only 1/5 of those prisoners is in there for drug-related crime. Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

This shoplifting epidemic is happening because no one is going to jail for this. The DA has made clear they won't prosecute these crimes so the shoplifters have no fear of getting caught and know they will be released soon.

> This shoplifting epidemic is happening because no one is going to jail for this.

Is that true?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/17/walmart-shop...

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#100

Let the market handle this. Simply close stores with high theft rates, which will happen anyway since they’re unprofitable.

> Let the market handle this. Not sure I want that. When the state refuses to protect private property, the market solution tends to look more like Vito Corleone. That's especially true when it appears certain organized crime groups are perpetrating coordinated thefts like the one at Nordstrom. The big corporations can't afford to to have mafia payments on the books, but they can afford to pack up and leave or encase…

Kind of, though:

In the past stores had Loss Prevention departments which were tasked with this stuff. It's never been the case that nobody shop lifted, its just now that the economic race has led retailers to externalize and cut costs.

It's very, very annoying to have some mall cop following you around, so now its a camera, later it will be many more and much better cameras with a lower paid employee with much less engagement with their occupation. I reject that it is an impossible task for national retailers.

I suspect walmart has a workable model: They move stocking into the shopping hours and use all of their employees as a micro-scale surveillance network.

Why should society foot the bill for for police and such to watch private property like this and essentialy persecute the population because the national retailers don't want to invest in the cost of doing business?

Inside of a store, it's completely reasonable and totally possible to just have an employee around.

Policing organized crime is the job of the FBI, if my knowledge of this stuff is a little bit correct. All of this surveillance garbage we've been ignoring for decades was supposed to solve these problems, but it is clearly not capable of doing so.

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