Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions • Hacker News Board

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#81

Post by MattGaiser » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:08 PM UTC

tomlockwood wrote: post #61

MattGaiser wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider another few possibilities. 1. Americans are just more likely to be criminals. 2. Other nations may be equally or even more ineffective at tackling crime. The assumption that jail doesn't work rests on the assumption that other nations track crime as effectively and that their people are equally criminal.

I'm totally behind 1, open to any evidence of 2. The question then if we decide 1 is the case is - why? What predisposes Americans to, the most jailable crime in the world?

I don’t have anything other than anecdotal stories I would rather not share publicly, but it essentially amounts to there not being any resources to handle non-violent crime (and even violent crime against men is anecdotally ignored).

There just isn’t the capacity of the system to deal with how terrible so many people are and the end result of that is cops not bothering to even record instances as they don’t think it will matter.

This is Canada.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#82

Post by qbasic_forever » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:08 PM UTC

SllX wrote: post #74

qbasic_forever wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does society function if no one is tasked with feeding the people? Are we all supposed to own farms? How does that work with 330 million Americans? Who is going to have time to do things like design the hardware and software that power the devices you use to post on the internet--they don't have time to do that and work their personal farm for food...

No one is actually tasked with feeding people. We benefit from the surplus of farms which sell their excess for profit, and you are then tasked with securing the means of purchasing food if you want to eat. Or: farms task themselves with producing food in the same way programmers task themselves with producing software.

Why should the farmers stay in business of making food if they could make more money as programmers, bitcoin traders, etc?

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#83

Post by tagoregrtst » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:08 PM UTC

WalterGR wrote: post #59

Some companies are lying about why they’re closing stores. For example, Walgreens announced in 2019 that it would shutter 200 stores. Blaming shoplifting sounds like some serious Chamber of Commerce spin to direct attention away from them abandoning locations and the jobs that go with them, and to give ammunition to pro-corporate pro-policing factions.

So Walgreen is closing otherwise profitable stores out of spite?

Do you have any evidence for this?

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#84

Post by buscoquadnary » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:09 PM UTC

tomlockwood wrote: post #25

I'd like anyone who considers more harsh jail punishments to be the solution to consider that the USA has the highest per-capita prison population in the world. Only 1/5 of those prisoners is in there for drug-related crime. Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

This shoplifting epidemic is happening because no one is going to jail for this. The DA has made clear they won't prosecute these crimes so the shoplifters have no fear of getting caught and know they will be released soon.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#85

Post by notthemessiah » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:10 PM UTC

ahh wrote: post #43

tomlockwood wrote: post #25

I'd like anyone who considers more harsh jail punishments to be the solution to consider that the USA has the highest per-capita prison population in the world. Only 1/5 of those prisoners is in there for drug-related crime. Perhaps harsher punishments aren't going to help here.

If only 1/5th of those prisoners are there for drug-crime (and I assume you believe as I do that much drug-related crime isn't worth the arrest?) then isn't that in fact evidence that our population commits substantially more _real_ crime than in other countries? If so, then yes, let's lock them up. "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing.

We have a high recidivism rate because are correctional institutions have no intention of correcting anything about our inmates. California profits off of private prison labor, and have no incentive to provide a path to recovery from a life of crime.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#86

Post by foogazi » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:10 PM UTC

tomlockwood wrote: post #51

ahh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only 1/5th of those prisoners are there for drug-crime (and I assume you believe as I do that much drug-related crime isn't worth the arrest?) then isn't that in fact evidence that our population commits substantially more _real_ crime than in other countries? If so, then yes, let's lock them up. "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing.

> "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing. I'm not defending stealing, I'm saying for all crime in America, the deterrent of jail doesn't appear to be working. That button has already been pressed, hard.

> the deterrent of jail doesn't appear to be working.

Deterrent ? It does work, the people in jail are not stealing

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#87

Post by notthemessiah » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:12 PM UTC

ahh wrote: post #46

Bostonian wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to incarcerate a first-time shoplifter, but a habitual thief deserves to spend some time in jail, and the threat of jail will deter people from being habitual thieves.

If they spend time in jail after the first time, maybe they won't become a habitual thief.

Nah, prison is where they learn how to get away with it next time from hardened criminals.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#88

Post by buscoquadnary » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:13 PM UTC

glogla wrote: post #72

buscoquadnary wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people aren't shoplifting to get their needs and to propose such so am ignorance of the situation. There was a wonderful and detailed article a while back about a baby formula shoplifting ring in the south that shows how this works. The people who are doing the shoplifting are often drug addicts who are promised cash payments or more drugs if they will go and shoplift by a middle man who then stockpiles the goo…

This sounds like exactly the kind of this someone who doesn't want to confront millions of their countrymen living in desperation would tell themselves. No idea if it's really true, but it is suspicious how there's always a good explanation that something that looks like terrible injustice actually isn't.

To quote the article > Now they're combating systematic looting by organized crime gangs — which are growing more aggressive and violent

This is a well documented phenomena and js evidenced by what people are stealing. You don't show up to Nordstrom with a garbage bag if you are starving and hungry you do it if you are looking to score.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#89

Post by SllX » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:13 PM UTC

qbasic_forever wrote: post #82

SllX wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is actually tasked with feeding people. We benefit from the surplus of farms which sell their excess for profit, and you are then tasked with securing the means of purchasing food if you want to eat. Or: farms task themselves with producing food in the same way programmers task themselves with producing software.

Why should the farmers stay in business of making food if they could make more money as programmers, bitcoin traders, etc?

Why do people go into Real Estate or hospitality or teaching if they could make more money as programmers, bitcoin traders, etc?

The answer is, I don’t know why people do everything they do, but the labor market sorts itself out according to incentives, ability, compensation, laws, education, the dispersal of information and any number of factors.

We have farms and they are really good at what they do because we have food that is readily and cheaply accessible in abundance.

Re: Shoplifting reaches crisis proportions

#90

Post by WalterGR » Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 9:13 PM UTC

notthemessiah wrote: post #85

ahh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only 1/5th of those prisoners are there for drug-crime (and I assume you believe as I do that much drug-related crime isn't worth the arrest?) then isn't that in fact evidence that our population commits substantially more _real_ crime than in other countries? If so, then yes, let's lock them up. "Everyone steals" is not a good defense to stealing.

We have a high recidivism rate because are correctional institutions have no intention of correcting anything about our inmates. California profits off of private prison labor, and have no incentive to provide a path to recovery from a life of crime.

Which states don’t profit off of prisons?