I imagine this has a lot to do with the variability around titles in such a large organization. Many teams will use "titles as compensation" or otherwise have wildly different metrics for what constitutes a particular level, even if there is technically a single corporate level policy. Should a new-grad hire that makes senior in 3 years be considered on paper at the same level as a 15+ year senior dev? Probably not, and this seems like a pretty equitable way to solve that problem.
Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’
121–130 of 337 posts
Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
Came here to say this. As far as I’m concerned this is a privacy protection. It’s trivial to verify someone’s position at Apple with a reference check.
> It’s trivial to verify someone’s position at Apple with a reference check. Only if they left on good terms.
If no one will offer an opinion on a former employee, then you have the information you need.
Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’
#123I think it's really important to note that Apple does not have to share their database with these third party companies, but not only do they choose to do so they also make sure the information is wrong. Apple is, essentially, being unethical on two levels. They're selling or sharing employee information, and they're purposefully making it so that information is wrong. I want to stress this- I ask during the intervie…
I don't necessarily agree that what they are doing is unethical. It seems more a preservation of their business practices. Which is understandable and actually the ethical thing to do since Apple has no obligation to help others, including competitors. There is also an argument that what they are doing is the ethical thing to do by not feeding data into yet another mass surveillance and control system to manage and control people's lives. Imagine you defy or upset the regime … poof … your official employment history says you have no history and are a liar. You are a non-person now.
What is unethical though is the wholesale surveillance and monitoring without any kind of control by those who are being surveilled and monitored, regarding their "employment history" (not all that different than how slave owners would "horse trade" slaves). I realize that many will find that hyperbolic, but in essence it is the same thing going on, the force with the power is negotiating and conversing and managing their resources without those resources being aware, having any input, or being able to even object to it being done. Those resources that are treated like that are not just cattle that may have desirable traits, or slaves that have a stout back, they are humans … Human Resources.
I keep trying to get people to understand that the reality of the matter is that what we call salvery was never actually ended, it was simply pivoted because the ruling class realized there was a far more efficient, effective, lower cost, less hassle and wildly more profitable way of achieving the same exploration … just abstract the means and methods of control with money, regulations, incentives, etc. Why spend all day trying to force people to work against their will where you get marginal returns from a small set of human resources, when you can just construct a system where you can get major increases in returns from a/the majority of society.
It is not a coincidence that this evolution from industrial and agricultural slavery started shortly after the Civil War in the USA. Now we have whole global corporations run by like self-governing slave hives, including a very similar foreman/overseer structure that trickles down to the lowly digital field workers in the code factories, call centers, and cheerful retail stores.
Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This is a huge dick move by Apple. Ehh, I think this is a Chesteranlon's Razorfence situation. Never attribute to malice something for which you do not yet understand the purpose. HR world generally is afraid to denigrate former employees for liability reasons, and many corporate HR departments have a policy of confirming only whether an employee worked for the company, and nothing else. Choosing a vague term like…
> Ehh, I think this is a Chesteranlon's Razorfence situation. Never attribute to malice something for which you do not yet understand the purpose. Do you mean "Chesterton's Fence"? I get no hits for "Chesteranlon's Razorfence" or "Chesterton's Razorfence." That is a pretty remarkable corruption of the term, though. Or are you trying to coin a term? > HR world generally is afraid to denigrate former employees for liab…
> Do you mean "Chesterton's Fence"? I get no hits for "Chesteranlon's Razorfence" or "Chesterton's Razorfence."
It's a merging of Chesterton's Fence and Hanlon's Razor
Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’
#125(Just to throat clear ahead of time... I obviously find what Apple is doing super shitty. I just want to find some reason besides "Apple bad" for why they would do this.) Could they be doing this title change, at least in theory, as an information security measure? Competitors and journalists could potentially corroborate (or have an easier time corroborating) leaks if they can verify that a former employee is the po…
If it is for secrecy then why not delete the information and inform those who ask they do not hold such information? The issue was the discrepancy when a third party tried to verify, and I'm sure third parties would quickly learn to work around the fact?
Instead making everyone associates is like an error propagating far from it's call site until an exception (this article) is raised.
Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’
#126(Just to throat clear ahead of time... I obviously find what Apple is doing super shitty. I just want to find some reason besides "Apple bad" for why they would do this.) Could they be doing this title change, at least in theory, as an information security measure? Competitors and journalists could potentially corroborate (or have an easier time corroborating) leaks if they can verify that a former employee is the po…
This was my first thought. Apple is notoriously secretive, even internally. They likely see this as a way to prevent folks from reverse engineering through job titles what former employees were working on. (Agreed that it's super shitty and likely overkill, but I think this is a better explanation than outright trying to screw former employees.) In this case, though, why not replace the job title with "Employee"?
Exactly, or expulge and refuse to provide job titles? That begs the question, why do they provide this information to third parties anyway?
Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’
#127Sounds like when you leave Apple you are free to give yourself a title promotion since they wipe all that info. I would also pass on any company that needs references to my job title because their dystopian background check through the infamous Equifax says I'm an associate, even with a software engineering background, haha that part was beyond silly.
The easiest way to get 20% more at a new gig is by inflating your salary by 20% at your old gig.
Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wow. I have read a bunch of cult-escapee biographies, as the cult dynamic fascinated me. All of them had an extreme narcissist at the center. Somehow I had never connected that with the famous tech company with an extreme narcissist at the center. But you're right, that pattern of retaliation against people who dare to leave fits perfectly here.
I mean, I don't feel like Tim Cook is an extreme narcissist cult leader, but I don't know enough about him. Of course, the fact that he hasn't mythologized himself as much as Steve Jobs did is a piece of evidence in favor of him not being a narcissist. If I had to choose a "tech company cult" it would be Tesla/SpaceX/Boring/whatever else Musk is running.
The narcissistic personality at the center of Apple’s culture today is Apple itself. Even Cook speaks in near-reverential tones about the company he leads.
Most corporations try to do this in the long run; it’s arguably inherent in the concept of incorporation, which is etymologically and legally the creation of a new “person.”
Even if it starts with an iconic founder, in the long run the company itself must become the object of loyalty to survive. Comms, HR, and marketing teams spend tons of effort to create a corporate personality and culture. (Note the root of the word culture.) Apple famously set up their own “university” to develop and instill their culture.
Loyalty to the company, distrust of outsiders, personal adherence in a “mission”: these are not things specific to or invented by Apple. Although the specific vindictive tactic of hiding titles is one that I’ve not heard of before.
Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’
#129I remember when I interned at Intel, on the way out I asked about references and I was told, very nicely, that Intel's official policy is to only confirm employment. I suspect that this is really what Apple is doing; but that some accident of circumstance required them to provide a very generic title. Perhaps they can't confirm employment without some kind of title, and that title's now been twisted out of context? F…
You're really bending over backwards here to justify really bad behavior. Apple is actually bringing on liability by lying about what people's titles really were. They aren't saying "nothing", they're actually defaming their previous employees by lying about their level.
They're not "lying about their level". Contra the article, the term "associate" does not in fact mean "junior employee"; I can think of huge companies where everyone's formal title is "associate" regardless of seniority, in the same way that Bell Labs did MTS.
Further, nobody is "bending over backwards" to defend anybody; they're writing their own take on what happened. You're asked by the guidelines to assume good faith in other commenters.
Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’
#130If Apple considers level 1 and 5 to both be associates and doesn’t share more than that that’s… fine? WaPo says this can be a 6 figure difference in compensation but frankly why should a future employer get to know how much I make? Maybe I’m a level 3 but deserved to be a level 4. Maybe I’m a level 5 but actually a level 2 that’s just really good at office politics. If I want my employer to know what number Apple ass…
I cannot wait to check back in with you when you're trying to get a new job and negotiating salary.
> If I want my employer to know what number Apple assigned me, I’ll tell them.
Literally this article is about employers being like "hmm you told me this number but we don't believe you because Apple says its wrong"