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Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#61

Post by jsjohnst »

PedroBatista wrote: post #24
tablespoon wrote: post #3

> Apple offers a phone number employers can call to verify titles of former Apple employees. A voice recording on that line directs callers to the web site for InVerify, an employment verification service provider owned by credit agency Equifax. When The Washington Post called InVerify’s customer support number, a customer service representative said Apple is the only company he knew of that changes job titles of emp…

This is Apple's DNA and much more in recent years. The "monetize everything to the max" policy of encouraging developers to test their new pre-release M1 chip + OS and software for $500 and then after they return their DTK they offered a $200 store credit. The pettiness of continuing to charge 30% fees in one way or the other when they have been ordered by the courts to open their restrictions. The constant sabotage…

> The "monetize everything to the max" policy of encouraging developers to test their new pre-release M1 chip + OS and software for $500 and then after they return their DTK they offered a $200 store credit.

Ignoring the fact you completely missed the point of the DTK, this is factually wrong. The store credit was $500.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#62

Post by torstenvl »

tablespoon wrote: post #3

> Apple offers a phone number employers can call to verify titles of former Apple employees. A voice recording on that line directs callers to the web site for InVerify, an employment verification service provider owned by credit agency Equifax. When The Washington Post called InVerify’s customer support number, a customer service representative said Apple is the only company he knew of that changes job titles of emp…

> This is a huge dick move by Apple.

Ehh, I think this is a Chesteranlon's Razorfence situation. Never attribute to malice something for which you do not yet understand the purpose.

HR world generally is afraid to denigrate former employees for liability reasons, and many corporate HR departments have a policy of confirming only whether an employee worked for the company, and nothing else.

Choosing a vague term like "associate" (which simply means "employee," as compared to "partner" or some other term that suggests an ownership stake) aligns with that reasoning decently well. While it may not be ideal, and may not support truthful claims of relative seniority, it's a bit of a stretch to say that it was done with any malice.

EDIT: Apparently some people strongly disagree. If you disagree, might I ask what evidence you have of malice?

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#63

Post by BoiledCabbage »

hammock wrote: post #56
dsr_ wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they wanted to protect privacy, they would only have two responses: "We confirm that this person worked for Apple, ending on [date]. By policy, we don't discuss any further details." "We do not have records that this person worked for Apple."

That is essentially what wiping title record with "associate" does. It's a generic term that is commonly synonymous with employee.

No it's clearly not.

It's very clearly implying they had a job with the title "associate".

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#64

Post by johncessna »

Looking back at my career, I don't think this would have impacted me in any way. I've found titles to be meaningless this industry. They may hold some weight in FAANG companies only because folks know what an amazon L5, microsoft 62, google, facebook E4, etc. are. There's even a handy website [1] to compare them.

When you get out of FAANG, titles becomes even more irrelevant. What's a Programmer VI compared to a senior associate consultant?

I think this is part of the reason why we have the 'show me what you know' interviews. Degrees, Titles, past experience maybe get you in the door, but you still need to pass the tech interview for the role.

[1] https://www.levels.fyi

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#65

Post by james-redwood »

froggertoaster wrote: post #30
SilasX wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Well, he went on medical leave, so we changed his title to Mainstream Medicine Denier and then Organ System Pentester." Reference: https://apecsec.org/steve-jobs-liver-transplant-controversy/

Not funny.

It's hilarious

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#66

Post by vsskanth »

Something that's not mentioned here is this refusal to even confirm what you worked on also affects people's immigration status.

To approve I-140, USCIS requires a signed letter from employers confirming your title, experience and skill sets.

Most companies really don't like to give these details out for some reason, and it's always a struggle, especially outside tech. People manage by contacting their managers to past coworkers to attest this.

This is intended as a general observation and not about AAPL (I can't attest to what happens there).

Naturally, you can see how this puts pressure on visa employees to leave on good terms and be compliant knowing you might not be able to extend your visa otherwise.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#67

Post by magikaram »

froggertoaster wrote: post #30
SilasX wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Well, he went on medical leave, so we changed his title to Mainstream Medicine Denier and then Organ System Pentester." Reference: https://apecsec.org/steve-jobs-liver-transplant-controversy/

Not funny.

Pretty funny.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#68

Post by drewg123 »

Wow, I would hate this. When I left Google, I had just been promoted to L6 (staff) SWE, and I delayed my departure by 2 weeks in order for my promo to take effect. I did this primarily so that I could list the new level on my resume and have it seen as accurate in the future. And also so that if I decided to re-join Google, I'd come in as an L6.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#69

Post by sprayk »

(Just to throat clear ahead of time... I obviously find what Apple is doing super shitty. I just want to find some reason besides "Apple bad" for why they would do this.)

Could they be doing this title change, at least in theory, as an information security measure? Competitors and journalists could potentially corroborate (or have an easier time corroborating) leaks if they can verify that a former employee is the position/level they claim to be.

I worked briefly at Apple as contractor doing some professional services integration type stuff in the datacenter space, and one thing that struck me was how secrecy seemed to ooze it's way into super unexpected places. This was to the point that I wondered if an infosec team had a hand in designing some of the systems I was working with that were way closer to the power lines than they were to the products they were designing. This was also around the time that I was reading about Apple's "Worldwide Loyalty Team" and how they would plan operations to catch people leaking.

As an aside, does anyone know how accurate the reporting was/is on the "Worldwide Loyalty Team"? Looking back it seems absurd, to the point where it makes more sense to me as a myth than fact.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#70

Post by josh2600 »

torstenvl wrote: post #62
tablespoon wrote: post #3

> Apple offers a phone number employers can call to verify titles of former Apple employees. A voice recording on that line directs callers to the web site for InVerify, an employment verification service provider owned by credit agency Equifax. When The Washington Post called InVerify’s customer support number, a customer service representative said Apple is the only company he knew of that changes job titles of emp…

> This is a huge dick move by Apple. Ehh, I think this is a Chesteranlon's Razorfence situation. Never attribute to malice something for which you do not yet understand the purpose. HR world generally is afraid to denigrate former employees for liability reasons, and many corporate HR departments have a policy of confirming only whether an employee worked for the company, and nothing else. Choosing a vague term like…

Came here to say this. As far as I’m concerned this is a privacy protection.

It’s trivial to verify someone’s position at Apple with a reference check.

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