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Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#91

Post by HWR_14 »

wpietri wrote: post #81
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving a cult is the ultimate sin in most cults, so it is not surprising at all. Any Apple employees reading this that want out, here’s a guide for help. https://www.wikihow.com/Leave-a-Cult

Wow. I have read a bunch of cult-escapee biographies, as the cult dynamic fascinated me. All of them had an extreme narcissist at the center. Somehow I had never connected that with the famous tech company with an extreme narcissist at the center. But you're right, that pattern of retaliation against people who dare to leave fits perfectly here.

I mean, I don't feel like Tim Cook is an extreme narcissist cult leader, but I don't know enough about him. Of course, the fact that he hasn't mythologized himself as much as Steve Jobs did is a piece of evidence in favor of him not being a narcissist. If I had to choose a "tech company cult" it would be Tesla/SpaceX/Boring/whatever else Musk is running.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#93

Post by HWR_14 »

bradly wrote: post #35
_fat_santa wrote: post #6

Wouldn't there be other ways for you to prove you were a "Level 4" or whatever at Apple and not an associate? An offer letter from Apple? Or just the totality of circumstances in general. If say you're interviewing for a "Sr Engineer" position, you're just not going to have an instance where the candidate shows experience and knowledge but doesn't get hired because some record from Lexis Nexis says that he was an "as…

Your new employer can believe you? If they are hiring simply based on a couple words from a different company, then there is going to be risk for them.

I mean, you could link them to a Washington Post article explaining the situation.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#94

Post by Kon-Peki »

sly010 wrote: post #23
_fat_santa wrote: post #6

Wouldn't there be other ways for you to prove you were a "Level 4" or whatever at Apple and not an associate? An offer letter from Apple? Or just the totality of circumstances in general. If say you're interviewing for a "Sr Engineer" position, you're just not going to have an instance where the candidate shows experience and knowledge but doesn't get hired because some record from Lexis Nexis says that he was an "as…

You can try (especially if you know ahead of time) but background check is done by a third party. Recruiters and interviewers don't care until background check flags it. You can try to be upfront about it, but it just creates a weird situation and they will defer to the 3rd party background check anyway. Any evidence you may share with the background check company is not present on the final background report (since…

3rd party background checks are notoriously noisy. Companies that expect them to be the Word of God are, at best, naïve.

Every employer should be ready to resolve "discrepancies" that come back without any negative thoughts about the potential employee. If they can't or won't do that, I don't think you want to work for them.

A few years ago, I was involved in a spinoff and they decided that all the employees would need to go through a background check. Of the ~90 people, something like 10 people (>10%!!!) had weird stuff that turned out to be completely wrong. For example, one person was reported to be currently in prison 5 states over. Some others were "we can't verify this person ever worked for ABC Corp". We were ABC Corp.

Most of these background check companies, they'd say of course there are a lot of Mike Smiths around, but Patty Jones? No no, there has only ever been one Patty Jones in all of human history.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#95

Post by openknot »

sprayk wrote: post #69

(Just to throat clear ahead of time... I obviously find what Apple is doing super shitty. I just want to find some reason besides "Apple bad" for why they would do this.) Could they be doing this title change, at least in theory, as an information security measure? Competitors and journalists could potentially corroborate (or have an easier time corroborating) leaks if they can verify that a former employee is the po…

>As an aside, does anyone know how accurate the reporting was/is on the "Worldwide Loyalty Team"? Looking back it seems absurd, to the point where it makes more sense to me as a myth than fact.

It's not credible from a fact-checking analysis. For reference, the publication that broke the news was Gizmodo [0]. The major issues are:

i) The source of the information is not identified on the record, and is just listed as "Tom" (no last name).

ii) There is only one anonymous interview for the article, and no supporting documentation referenced in the article to justify the claims.

iii) No other publication appears to verify the information independently, such as Apple Insider [1], for such a major story. This includes newspapers that maintain a reputation for fact-checking and responsibility (e.g. The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal), where it should should be feasible to verify if this was widely known within Apple.

[0] https://gizmodo.com/apple-gestapo-how-apple-hunts-down-leaks...

[1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/09/12/15/apples_worldwide_...

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#96

Post by tinalumfoil »

If Apple considers level 1 and 5 to both be associates and doesn’t share more than that that’s… fine?

WaPo says this can be a 6 figure difference in compensation but frankly why should a future employer get to know how much I make? Maybe I’m a level 3 but deserved to be a level 4. Maybe I’m a level 5 but actually a level 2 that’s just really good at office politics.

If I want my employer to know what number Apple assigned me, I’ll tell them.

EDIT: Telling companies a Level 5 engineer was an associate if associate isn't a superset of Level 5's is shady, and I can't defend Apple on that point. From what I read of the article that wasn't clear to me. They do say the title is generally linked to more junior roles but that's relative and you can still be old, experienced and well-paid but if you're not a manager I might consider that an associate.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#97

Post by ensignavenger »

bradly wrote: post #31
tablespoon wrote: post #3

> Apple offers a phone number employers can call to verify titles of former Apple employees. A voice recording on that line directs callers to the web site for InVerify, an employment verification service provider owned by credit agency Equifax. When The Washington Post called InVerify’s customer support number, a customer service representative said Apple is the only company he knew of that changes job titles of emp…

I worked at Apple and I’m okay they do this. My role is my information to share. I don’t need that sitting in some database in perpetuity.

I can understand that- its odd that they offer the phone number but don't provide accurate information on it, though. Why offer the hotline at all?

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#98

Post by sumeno »

redler wrote: post #85
dsr_ wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they wanted to protect privacy, they would only have two responses: "We confirm that this person worked for Apple, ending on [date]. By policy, we don't discuss any further details." "We do not have records that this person worked for Apple."

Since it will be widely known among peer organizations that Apple has this policy, the presence or absence of the "Associate" title achieves this, in effect, does it not? I think it's unlikely someone seeking a 600K job will be mistaken for having been a retail employee.

Based on the article it obviously isn’t widely enough known to prevent people from losing job offers over it.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#99

Post by genocidicbunny »

hammock wrote: post #40
lotsofpulp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The the title would have been changed to “former employee”, not “associate”, for which the only conceivable reason seems to be to confuse.

Associate means employee

Associate, in the USA at least, has a strong connotation of a junior position. As the article points out, there are plenty of examples of associate being used to describe a more junior position.

And you know what other word unambiguously means 'employee'? That wouldn't cause this sort of clamor? Yes, 'employee' is that word.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#100

Post by sumeno »

tinalumfoil wrote: post #96

If Apple considers level 1 and 5 to both be associates and doesn’t share more than that that’s… fine? WaPo says this can be a 6 figure difference in compensation but frankly why should a future employer get to know how much I make? Maybe I’m a level 3 but deserved to be a level 4. Maybe I’m a level 5 but actually a level 2 that’s just really good at office politics. If I want my employer to know what number Apple ass…

Apple doesn’t consider them to be associates though, that’s the point. Their job titles at Apple AND in the databases are accurate up until they leave the company and only then is their title demoted to Associate.
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