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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cultural legacy is more deeply intertwined with morals than people appreciate. It’s just hard to see it because you’re surrounded by it. It’s easier to notice when you compare between countries and across religious traditions. My dad was raised very religious (Muslim) in Bangladesh. His grandfather was an imam. He is non-religious and I grew up non-religious, but I joined a Christian church after I got marrie…

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>This is laughably wrong (I literally bursted our laughing). Tell it to the crusaders, to all the people who took part in pogroms for centuries all over the place, to the ethnic nationalists who are in power or close to post right now in Europe. Tell it to the refugees dying on boats in the Mediterranean as well...

Modern western countries with christian historical traditions do indeed welcome people from different ethnic backgrounds to a degree that no other countries on earth match. How is this wrong. Take even a brief look at demographic information from nearly any western european state or any of the anglo/saxon countries in the world. There's nothing at all laughably wrong about it. Pointing to boats in the Mediterranean is a case of finding the worst, extreme examples when they don't even closely represent the whole. What the crusaders and christians did centuries ago in the west is absurd as a criticism of TODAY'S western states.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#912

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a uniquely American thing. I studied abroad for a semester in England, and in one of the classes I took there the (Australian) professor asked us what socioeconomic class we thought we belonged to. It was a good university, but most of the British kids answered "working class." When he asked "Why?" they answered, "Because our parents work." That always stuck with me. In England, the aristocracy is alive and well…

That must have been a former polytechnic. I'm willing to be most university students in the UK would say they are middle class. Oxbridge is full of the upper class (although that is slowly changing).

The definition of "middle class" in the UK is different... Unintuitively middle class denotes a social standing well into the top decile - members of the middle class would be typically educated with a graduate or professional degree, top-5% salary, multiple properties, children in private schools. (Whereas in the US, any white collar person - so basically half the population - is "middle class".)

Yes, the UK middle class is over-represented at Oxbridge, but the definition is so narrow that they are outnumbered by the lower classes - state school kids and other riff-raff constitute two-thirds of Oxbridge classes, especially outside the upper-class signal subjects like Classics.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#913

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can look at the elite in society and see an over-representation of men, but it's important to also look at the most downtrodden and worse off in society. The homeless; people who are the victims of violent crime; people who die in wars; people who die working shitty jobs; people who are so hopeless that they commit suicide. Perhaps even looking at things like lifespan. Men's results are bimodal: if women are forc…

People keep repeating this claim, but of course that doesn't signal truth. Is there research behind it?

Yes? At least as far as all the individual points about men dying earlier in general, having higher suicide rates, greater risk of homelessness, worse educational outcomes, etc.

I suppose the point of contention people would make is that men deserve it/have it coming so it's not worth discussing or treating as a political topic.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#914
post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cultural legacy is more deeply intertwined with morals than people appreciate. It’s just hard to see it because you’re surrounded by it. It’s easier to notice when you compare between countries and across religious traditions. My dad was raised very religious (Muslim) in Bangladesh. His grandfather was an imam. He is non-religious and I grew up non-religious, but I joined a Christian church after I got marrie…

Question. How would you suggest I square your claims about Arab society with the observed fact that every year thousands of girls die in Arab countries from honor killings. And the fact that, as https://www.statista.com/statistics/1019538/mena-arab-respon... shows, in many of these countries, significant minorities think that such killings are justified. Killing your own child suggests to me that kinship means rather…

This is sort of a tangential post starting from your phrases "Killing your own child" and "honor killings". I eventually try to link it back to themes of loyalty to "family" vs. "nation" vs. universality.

1.

> Killing your own child

I can't hear this phrase without thinking of Abraham and Isaac. It's the story that the whole of the Old Testament revolves around.

(And then the New Testament goes to heroic lengths of reinterpretation? Or have I just gotten too much Girard in my head? I'm never sure how much to celebrate it as reformist (moving past the animal sacrifice cult of the Levites), vs. to detest it (continuing to worship the obscene god of the burning bush. But then how do you carve out that the Commandments are actually decent?). I'm also not quite sure that I'm really all that big a fan of Jesus himself; I may actually prefer the religion of Paul. But it was Jesus who was responsible for the Beatitudes, and for his famous and beautiful "whole of the law" summary. So I'm not sure. His radical anti-family message, combined with his urgency (and his apparent contempt for his disciples?) have never sat right with me. But maybe the urgency at least is essential.)

And supposedly the version we get in the Torah is the "Hollywood ending", whereas in the original (late neolithic?) story Isaac is simply killed and Abraham is rewarded. So the original is even worse.

(Or perhaps the fact of the "Hollywood ending" to Abraham and Isaac is itself an innovation to be celebrated, and we can view the Old Testament itself as part of that same Girardian process of reform, of yet-worse human sacrifice religions. A good thing about this is that it creates less of an Old Testament vs. New Testament binary/dualism; it expands the field of view.)

(There may also be a Yahwist vs. Elohist conflict I have yet to understand, which may help me tease apart good from bad parts of the Old Testament.)

2.

> honor killings

Not long ago I quoted Genesis 34, which disturbs me for several reasons -- that it celebrates an honor killing being one of them.

(Actually, maybe I'm wrong? Because they do not kill Dinah? More on that in a second.)

That the enemy clan is treated as a unit to be destroyed rather than the individual man is another. How can that possibly be justice?

(Some people will claim that Shechem raped Dinah. NIV translates it that way, but KJV doesn't. I don't believe the NIV translation. First, because those societies still exist and "consent" isn't really something they think about in judging these cases. And I mean, it says right there at the end that the Israelites kill the men and take their wives captive, presumably to be raped. Second, because Shechem is said to speak kindly to her and request her hand in marriage. And third because Hamor et al act as though good relations should be possible with the Israelites. KJV doesn't say "raped", it says "defiled" (more than once), and, given the rest of the chapter's focus on circumcision, I honestly think that the fact that he had sex with her with his intact penis is the thing they found offensive. Symbolic of course of his being an Other. A belief that comports with the rest of the Old Testament's repeated admonishments not to marry outside the Tribe (e.g., Samson and Delilah). I think it's much closer to a Black man being lynched for having the temerity to sleep with a white woman.)

...which brings us to, of course, the central role of genital mutilation to the story, which is another reason to be disturbed by it.

The complete rejection of an apparently good-faith effort towards peace and mutual assimilation is a fourth reason to be disturbed, but consistent with the particularism/separatism of the rest of the Old Testament.

And a fifth is the trickery involved. "Yes, yes, we can all get along! Undergo our painful and irreversible initiatiation!" ...and then be slain without mercy while you're still recovering.

I had the TV on the other day and saw a Rick Steves visit to Auschwitz/Birkenau, in which I was similarly disturbed by the amount of trickery involved. The victims were told to bring their luggage, so they would believe that they were being resettled to live good lives in another place. The sign over the gate famously said "Arbeit macht frei", another lie. All to avoid panic while their killing was planned. All like the promise of the sons of Jacob in Genesis 34:15-16.

All the more tragic because so many of those Jewish victims had assimilated into German society (not necessarily abandoning Judaism, but just treating it as another religion in the Liberal style, instead of as an ethno-nationalist thing), and they and the German gentiles they lived more-or-less peacefully among (until the Nazis riled them up) were essentially living as Hamor had promised,

> 9 And make ye marriages with us, and give your daughters unto us, and take our daughters unto you.

> 10 And ye shall dwell with us: and the land shall be before you; dwell and trade ye therein, and get you possessions therein.

which would have been the desirable outcome.

If it isn't clear yet, while Shechem may be a little dumb here (sort of a Romeo character), I think Hamor's the good guy, consistently trying to steer the situation towards a peaceful and mutually beneficial outcome.

We could really use Dinah's point of view here. I choose to interpret her as a sort of Juliet, stuck between these Montagues (Israelites) and Capulets (Hivites).

...

Can we bring it back to the themes of "kinship" and "Arab culture" (or, culture in the Middle East) vs. "Western culture"? To the themes of grandparent post?

Well, my interpretation of Genesis 34 is that it is anti-"miscegenist". Which would be, if not about kinship, then at least about nationality. And certainly not universalist.

And Abraham/Isaac is about sacrificing blood kin for the demands of a god who is arguably the personification of a nation.

So perhaps this is about nation vs. family -- dishonor to the nation outranking loyalty to kin.

Of course, this is all a bit inbred, so "nation" largely is "kin". Maybe then this is a meme that wants to create loyalty among genes at, say, the cousin-level degree of relatedness, at expense both of loyalty to specific children, and also of sympathy to outsiders. I'm thinking about ant colonies and cancer cells now. It's a choice to privilege a certain scale of "incorporation" -- what is the "body" we care about?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#915
post #900
post #880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women entering the workforce en masse did double the supply of labor, regardless of any other merits of that change. And increasing the supply reduces prices.

Unless it halved the prices (which I doubt greatly) it's a positive sum.

It's a valid point, but I have at least three objections:

1) Everybody starts out as single, so young men start out with a sharply reduced salary due to higher supply, which makes it harder for them to become financially secure and find a partner (which would then decrease their costs).

2) There are many extra costs associated with a two-income household, and many more negative effects from a two-income-as-the-default economy. Elizabeth Warren write The Two-Income Trap on this very subject.

3) It's quite possible that it did halve prices, or came surprisingly close! Have you seen those productivity vs wages graphs? Productivity increased by about 245%, wages increased by 110% (since 1950). That means wages are now at 60% of what they were, relative to productivity. That's not quite half, and the switch to a two-income expectation can't be the only factor, but it's close. Then again, there is still a significant workforce participation gap between men and women, even in the USA (69% vs. 57%), so even in ideal circumstances I wouldn't expect a perfect halving.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#916

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can look at the elite in society and see an over-representation of men, but it's important to also look at the most downtrodden and worse off in society. The homeless; people who are the victims of violent crime; people who die in wars; people who die working shitty jobs; people who are so hopeless that they commit suicide. Perhaps even looking at things like lifespan. Men's results are bimodal: if women are forc…

Are men’s results bimodal or just much higher standard deviation? I feel like there are way, way too many men living a “normal, unremarkably good nor bad” life to sustain a bimodal conclusion.

Probably a higher standard deviation is the better way to phrase it, though it's pretty fat tailed.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#917

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I'm not surprised he said it on a throwaway. For one thing there are a lot of people from the rest of the world here. We all roll our eyes and sigh a little when we hear "America is the greatest nation on earth".

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#918

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are told america is the best place on earth with all the doors open to you to be rich. That all other forms of government are flawed and we have excellence here everywhere you look. What other countries are great compared to America? With all its flaws America is the only country where you can dream of building spaceships, create multi billion dollar tech companies in less than a decade. Any ideology that forces…

> With all its flaws America is the only country where you can dream of building spaceships, create multi billion dollar tech companies in less than a decade. Why are these top priorities? Metrics like happiness seem like much more valuable metrics than number of spaceships or massive tech companies.

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not surprised he said it on a throwaway. For one thing there are a lot of people from the rest of the world here. We all roll our eyes and sigh a little when we hear "America is the greatest nation on earth".

FYI I am not a native American. I am aware Americas foreign policy is evil and it goes to war with any nation for selfish purpose. But with all its flaws it promotes individual freedom and that like most of Asian country citizens I admire. I also understand some of the European countries are great in terms of quality of life, safety net e.t.c. But they are weak and can not protect themselves in case of war and everyt…

What is more “evil” about American foreign policy compared to any other relevant global power?
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