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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#531

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

Note: This is a rough mix of reading Jonathan Haidt's books and my own thoughts.

What America is seeing is basically the result of a culture that only uses one moral value. Jonathan Haidt believes there is a set of moral primitives that all our brains support[0]. All other moral values or rules can be explained in terms of these. He also says that the US (potentially excluding the south) is the most single moral on earth. Particularly the "Liberal Cities" and particularly Universities. That one moral is care vs harm.

Some people want to be particularly moral. In societies the various morals have balanced usage, people will pick different morals to exemplify. Since different morals can give contradicting judgements on the same issue, this results in the net effect of these people being fairly neutral.

In a society with just one moral, all these people end up pushing in the same direction. If society is moving in one direction, then these people need to keep advancing in order to remain particularly moral. Given some specifics of US history, we see this result in the social justice movement we've seen in the last 10 years.

> what explains the relative stability in post-Christian Europe?

Europe, with a few exceptions, hasn't gone as hard at being focused on just a single moral value. They are largely biased towards care vs harm, but still use the other moral values.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who wouldn’t prefer to stay home if they had the choice? I could spend my days traveling, hiking, going to the beach, reading, working on hobbies, learning new skills, cooking, etc.

I think you misspelled changing diapers, doing laundry three times a day, spoon-feeding broccoli puree, scraping dried broccoli off the floor, shopping while trying to contain a squealing octopus, etc.

Or watching and helping form your own child into him/herself, meeting your friends for casual lunches in the park while your kids play, playing goofy games, having time to make nutritious meals instead of heating frozen foods, etc.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by “the Internet intelligentsia” you mean one guy last month, sure. Not his fault a few VCs are promoting it. His actual point is more like “ML developers are making a lot of money but don’t talk about themselves in the media; journalists don’t earn as much and you have to hear them complain about it all the time”.

It's a nonsensical idea that serves a narrative, so it's promoted by ignoramuses. Check. Take this "actual point" to its logical ... well, I was going to say "conclusion", but it occurs to me that there's no point here at all. The unemployed are not happy? The ultra-wealthy know better than to incite class wars? No idea. But anyone who coins the term "wordcel" to label a group they are not a part of, certainly seems…

Well, it is a joke. There's a genre of Twitter jokes based on "men are better at spatial visualization" studies where they imagine men entertaining themselves by rotating objects in their heads as a hobby.

I think the joke inventor made up a philosophy behind it to stop the VC guys from turning it into a culture war thing. He also put crypto guys under "wordcels" not "shape rotators" because they like writing whitepapers.

https://roonscape.substack.com/p/a-song-of-shapes-and-words

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#534

“ Not just coincidentally, “deaths of despair” — those caused by suicide, overdose and alcoholism — have surged to unprecedented levels among middle-aged men over the past 20 years.” The vast majority of those suicides are coming from a specific “ethnic category”. But if you say which one, it makes you a domestic terrorist. What is the motivation to live in a world where you’re not even allowed to talk about what’s h…

This comment really takes you on a roller coaster. To mirror the title here, this comment is clear: this boy is not all right.

Domestic terrorists? Social justice warrior nursing home staff? Patriot Act? Incel-oriented divorce court angst? Epstein?

> And yet what is the national conversation about? It’s only about how all straight men of a particular “ethnic category” are racist and evil and they all need to focus on giving more to people in other “ethnic categories”.

I just am never convinced by this reactionary argument when I hear it.

The internet skews people’s perceptions of the world, and this comment is exemplary of it. These Twitter-fueled “culture war” distortions have not done us any favors. In the most polite way possible, I recommend you go outside once in a while.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#535
post #294

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

A note on fitness. Any pressure I've had to lose weight or whatnot has come from me . All female partners have said that they don't care about my weight, and some actually like some belly to rest on. That said, they have commented favourably on other physical features, and I'm not particularly overweight. I say all this just to try and fight the idea that crops up that if you're male and don't fit some jacked or "Cha…

If you look at male-oriented fitness subcultures, they’re almost never motivated by sexual attractiveness. The idea of “lifting for women” is typically a taboo that will get you ridiculed in most communities. The ideals of these communities typically revolve around some model of self-improvement, and if the participants are pursuing any type of social status, it’s typically in the form of praise from other men.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#536
Sorry WP, too little too late.

I don't think the "mainstream" has fully caught on yet, but all those disaffected men are getting nothing from these empty "we see there's a problem" articles and empty half-acknowledgements, because the entire political and academic system is now fully aligned against them.

Lots of men these days are all turning to Red Pill content online whether you agree or not because its the only counter to the "masculinity is toxic" narrative. You better hope that people like Jordan Peterson succeed because his message to men is way more centrist and reasonable (watered down some would say) then the Red Pill elites like Rollo Tomassi, Fresh and Fit, and anyone else in the Rule Zero crowd. I'm sure many of you will gasp in horror if you've never heard of or seen their content on youtube, but realize this IS the backlash and the pendulum swinging the other way. WP and outlets like it (I'm looking at you NYT) created this culture and now you have to live with the backlash. I actually think that the mainstream will catch on to this pretty soon and label it the new boogie man at some point but by then nobody will watch or read their content so it will be too little too late.

Pretty soon the "all masculinity is toxic" crowd are going to find themselves labeled as the "uncool" crowd just as the religious evangelicals who were trying to censor south park back in the 90's were. And the pendulum swings...

I'm homeschooling my own son to keep him sheltered from both sides crazyness and plan to teach him to be a reasonable centrist who doesn't get caught up in dogma.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A dual-income family isn’t necessarily evidence that you need two incomes to survive. Rather, it just means there’s a lot of things out there to buy, so it's worth paying for childcare to earn more money. It’s also a sign that the gender income gap decreased, because it’s worth both people’s time to work. It’s not worth womens’ time to work either when the family is poor (because they can’t earn much and might as wel…

Most families need two incomes in my experience. "This means the easiest way to get back to a one-income family is to lower womens’ wages again, so you probably shouldn’t wish for it." There's no connection to this and the rest of your post. It also assumes that families don't need two incomes to stay out of poverty or off of assistance. The easiest ways according to your post is to make a family poor or rich.

> Most families need two incomes in my experience.

Probably depends on the neighborhood - there's claims in this thread that single motherhood is up, but those can't both be true. (I don't have any evidence to add here.)

> The easiest ways according to your post is to make a family poor or rich.

Yes, but making someone poor's a lot easier. Murphy's law, y'know.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The selection process is on Tinder, not the maternity ward, and the bar is brutally high there for men.

I used to think that. I genuinely did. I thought that the bar was all the way up in space and that it’s impossible to reach it. I was pretty lonely. Of course, I used to also think that my value was in my net worth and you could have seen all the way from space the “I’m an asshole and I don’t know why nobody will date me” vibes radiating off of me. Then I grew up, I chilled out, and I put conscious effort into things…

> listening, and exercising my capacity for empathy, and trying to be pleasant to be around

None of that matters if you aren’t attractive. You have to be attractive for girls to swipe right on you and start a conversation in the first place.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#539

Regarding manufacturing jobs I really loved this freakonomics podcast[1] > Interviewer: Ah, the lovely language of economics once again. “Costlessly reallocate to their next best opportunity,” meaning that some American who loses his manufacturing job just hops over to the next good job, which just happens to be available, near where he’s already living, and for which he just happens to be perfectly qualified for… >…

Well if your looser your job will your wife and kids follow you to the next one? Mine probably won’t so what do I do? Live alone and send money home or do I hop Between low wage jobs?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the ball is firmly in the woman’s court now. Women have most of the advantages (education, societal promotion, fit in better with our institutions) I don't think we at all can define what individuals should do based on their gender; that is sort of the point. They can be who and what they want to be. Maybe by some theory women have most of the advantages, but the outcomes clearly indicate otherwise. Look at…

You can look at the elite in society and see an over-representation of men, but it's important to also look at the most downtrodden and worse off in society. The homeless; people who are the victims of violent crime; people who die in wars; people who die working shitty jobs; people who are so hopeless that they commit suicide. Perhaps even looking at things like lifespan. Men's results are bimodal: if women are forc…

Are men’s results bimodal or just much higher standard deviation? I feel like there are way, way too many men living a “normal, unremarkably good nor bad” life to sustain a bimodal conclusion.
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