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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#491
post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And pointing to the decline of religion isn't very helpful for us atheists. I can't really buy into a religion I don't believe in for the sake of making society better. I'd rather try to make society better directly, I don't want to do a "noble lie". I'll gesture vaguely at "the suburbs". Low trust and alienation describes my childhood in a place where you needed a car to do anything and even when my parents let me w…

The bad suburbs theory sounds plausible, but it has a big problem: it predicts that cities will be less dysfunctional than suburbs, but in reality they are anything but — things are way worse in the cities.

reduced social interaction in a suburban setting could simultaneously explain both the psychological harm to young men and the elevated 'way worse' things in cities.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#492
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And having very few adults to talk to, no status, no career advancement (in fact, the opposite), and little recognition.

Eh? There are plenty of other parents and nannies at the park taking their kids out, if you want to talk to someone.

As a former homemaker this comes across as tone deaf. From my experience, you might as well have just said, "You can always hang out at a PTA meeting."

Being a homemaker can be incredibly isolating. Homemakers need meaningful adult interaction and relationships that are not centered around their children or exclusive to their spouses.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#493

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

Mmm, what stability are you referring to? I'm 34 and pretty much all men I know is in pretty bad situation.

I bet here in HN most people has a somewhat functional family, some savings and decent wages. It's not my case or the case of most of the people that I know.

And yes, in general men seem to be doing worse than women, although Spain may be a bit of an outlier here.

By my own account, I've grown poor. Meaning, that there has been times where I didn't have to eat. Not like I couldn't afford food that I liked, just that there was nothing in the fridge, no money to go buy anything, and I was queued for help (which by the way, it was almost all the time provided by NGOs...).

In the long way of getting out of poverty, I was offered barely any help, and, in hindsight, pretty poor guidance and counseling. I should have been told to study IT-related stuff given my predispositions or some trade, but oh well, it is what it is.

Now, of course I also had female friends in a similar situation. I'd say they had better counseling, better opportunies and above everything, which is a taboo here in Spain, there where more resources for them AND they had an easier time finding low-wage jobs, which is fairly important when you're at the botton of the society.

Now some of them are public employees. Which is kind of surprising given that I can't see how I would be able to study about two years full time (it's pretty difficult to get a position) or any of my friends. I mean, I know how that happend, they've got money that I can't qualify for because I have a penis. There are plenty of places where being a female gives you extra points by law, so I guess some of that benefited them too.

The major difference between me and my male friends is that I've got an stable contract in a telco contractor when I was about 24 (HelpDesk). I kept costs low and saved as much as I could. This saved my life. Liking computers saved my life. If it wasn't for that, I'd be who knows where, maybe homeless or in jail.

And I'm here now with 34 learning programming (thank you so much of all the volunteers that make this possible, in particular for the folks of Stanford Code in Place and The Odin Project).

Does this sound bad? Well, I know, I think 2 guys that are better off than me. One had a working class but functional family, and went to study physics, so good guidance and enough money. The other one had a hard time but eventually did the equivalent of community college and works as a consultant for wireless solutions. Everyone else is fucked up, and if look at the numbers in Spain I bet it will back up my observations.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#494
Regarding manufacturing jobs I really loved this freakonomics podcast[1]

> Interviewer: Ah, the lovely language of economics once again. “Costlessly reallocate to their next best opportunity,” meaning that some American who loses his manufacturing job just hops over to the next good job, which just happens to be available, near where he’s already living, and for which he just happens to be perfectly qualified for…

> Economist: That’s not what we see. We see those falls in manufacturing employment correspond to about equally large falls in overall employment rates over the first 10 years in those trade-impacted locations. So every half a point that manufacturing falls, we see a total decline of about a half a point. So some people are leaving the labor market, some people are going into unemployment. Some people are going on to disability. And so the reallocation process seems to be slow, frictional, and scarring.

[1]https://freakonomics.com/podcast/did-china-eat-americas-jobs...

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#495
post #244

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

> what explains the relative stability in post-Christian Europe? Politics is the new religion insofar as it develops moral frameworks and makes people abide by them while convincing them they are making the "rational" choice. This is informed substantially by Enlightenment-era philosophies and is the major component in modern consent manufacturing. "Rational" in scare quotes because good luck converting questions of…

Americans by and large want to be believers in…something.

There is nothing more frightening than someone that really and truly believes something. There is no end to what they will do.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#496

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

> Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen I don't think you need these things to find a partner and have children. Just go to a maternity ward. It sounds like you think everyone there is highly motivated, physically fit, and dedicated to working on relationships. They aren't. They're just normal people with a range of human flaws…

The selection process is on Tinder, not the maternity ward, and the bar is brutally high there for men.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#499
we'll fix all these gender inequality problems once parents stop making such a big deal about gender. girls are not respected because they are raised to be shiny princesses with no real power while boys often have violence issue as in the article because they are raised to be "tough". the parents need to fix this because it starts from day 1

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever the cause I fully reject the lazy conclusion this is somehow women's fault. Of course! The problem is not women! The problem is media, schools, companies, everyone buying into this in a collective delusion. Men also think this, but unlike women we are even encouraged to strengthen these insane ideas that we are somehow inferior (gets imprisoned more often, less academic success despite supposedly being ext…

Right. It’s our fault, that is, men’s. We live in a society in which we we have disproportionately had the power. And this is the result. But I don’t think it’s really a gender thing, I think it’s a power and money thing. That is, I don’t think mainly white, rich and powerful men set out to disadvantage other men. I think they were more focused on advantaging themselves to the exclusion of everyone else. What I find…

> Right. It’s our fault, that is, men’s. We live in a society in which we we have disproportionately had the power. And this is the result.

I find gender blaming conversation to be reductive. The decline of men and boys is not men's fault nor is it women's fault. Dare I say there's little data to show either way, nor is it really helpful in healing from a dysfunctional society that has failed you on a systemic and individual level.

Even worse, the way some people will wave their hands and use the word "power" to justify why men should be successful is pure misandry and a misunderstanding of the availability and avenues of power. A boy that grows up with an undiagnosed learning challenge is not afforded power or privilege, despite blanketly being regarded as powerful due to their gender. Parallel examples to this are countless.

> Why are women doing better in certain areas?

Easy. Feminism. It's the societal block for the broader representation of a spectrum of views that are women-centric that has significant force in society. They provide programs that are often woman-exclusive, advocate and raise alarms on issues, etc... There is nothing like this for men because modern rhetoric opposes the idea that men can be a victim to much of anything.

The point of the post seems to be, "Maybe stop treating men and boys like the villains in their own story, don't make scarecrows out of other groups as has been historically done, and use positivity to create a culture that men want and strive to be a part of."

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