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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#231

Post by skinkestek »

vharuck wrote: post #208
jimbokun wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now try proposing a space that caters to men and helps them learn and feel better.

Not to be flippant, but have you seen somebody try this and fail or be stopped? What would be the purpose of the group? Why would it need to cater to men? These aren't rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely asking.

> Not to be flippant, but have you seen somebody try this and fail or be stopped? What would be the purpose of the group?

I've not tried that exact thing but I have tried twice carefully to bring attention to mens day at work.

I stopped doing it and I probably won't do it again; it's just a simple way to get some mockery thrown at oneself even at the generally very civil place where I work.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#232

Post by c7DJTLrn »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #43
commandlinefan wrote: post #29

> As men’s unemployment rises, their romantic prospects decline. Conversely: as young men's potential future employability rises, their romantic prospects also decline. That is - the men who'll grow up to be stable and reliable have lonely teenage years.

I'm one of these men and I hope this actually works out in the end. I sense that men also have a biological clock but we can reassure ourselves that we can keep putting off settling down because of the biological reality of male reproduction. If I just get a little more successful, then I will be more attractive in courtship. But the thing is, you lose track of time really quickly. And, it is quite the bootstrapping…

Good luck to you. I'm in the same boat and it's comforting to not be alone. I've sacrificed a social and romantic life to get to this point (20 year old, fairly well paid DevOps guy). There are days that I immensely regret leaving school at 16 and terminating my youth early but financially speaking it was the best decision ever. I just push onwards, hope for life to become fun, and hope that I won't become a cautionary tale.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#233

Post by tsol »

ok_dad wrote: post #162
Beltalowda wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed; how is it fair that men are "forced" to work and provide income (with all the stress associated for that, especially for low-earners) and are "forced" to miss out on their kids? It seems to me that's just as much of an injustice as women being "forced" to stay at home. ("forced" in quotes as it's not strongly forced, but rather "forced" by expectations, prospects, etc.) I've long considered traditional gender…

Men are socialized to work by the same society that women are socialized to stay home and make babies. Feminism's direct goals would be breaking that down so that men could stay home (unfortunately we cannot make babies) and women could work, or any other combination, without the traditional gender role boundaries. Feminism's goals are good for everyone.

I'd like to see some stats that feminism has led to women marrying men who make less than them. From what I've seen, the expectation that a man should provide holds true even with egalitarian couples.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#234

Post by csa »

ska wrote: post #125
csa wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Legal marriage also leads to pathological complications in terms of seperation in some states. This cannot be overstated. True even with a prenup.

> This cannot be overstated. Sure it can. It's not complicated (pathologically or otherwise), it's just not what some people want. I definitely think (particularly young) people should be better educated about what a marriage contract is and isn't before they get into it.

> I definitely think (particularly young) people should be better educated about what a marriage contract is and isn't before they get into it.

I agree, but I think the HN crowd might grossly underestimate how difficult it is for lay people to get accurate, actionable advice that is also fully understood.

The default takeaway for a not small number of people is “don’t get married if you are successful and like financial security”.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#235

Post by [deleted] »

Beltalowda wrote: post #101
ok_dad wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I would love to quit working and take care of my family at home. I find much more joy in that than working a programming career. I think a lot of men have been conditioned to think we have to be the provider much like women have been conditioned to think they have to be a homemaker.

Indeed; how is it fair that men are "forced" to work and provide income (with all the stress associated for that, especially for low-earners) and are "forced" to miss out on their kids? It seems to me that's just as much of an injustice as women being "forced" to stay at home. ("forced" in quotes as it's not strongly forced, but rather "forced" by expectations, prospects, etc.) I've long considered traditional gender…

[deleted]

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#236

Post by chrisseaton »

thrway99 wrote: post #61

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

> Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen

I don't think you need these things to find a partner and have children.

Just go to a maternity ward. It sounds like you think everyone there is highly motivated, physically fit, and dedicated to working on relationships. They aren't. They're just normal people with a range of human flaws and a regular cross-section of society. Fat, thin, lazy, hard-working, professional, unemployed, etc.

Having kids isn't as hard as you make it sound!

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#237

Post by at_a_remove »

emerged wrote: post #139
tmnstr85 wrote: post #104

White, straight, male, 37 with two kids. One who is severely disabled and under the age of 5. In the past couple of years, its become clear to me that I will probably become a caretaker to my daughter at some point in my life. The prospects of keeping a full time job, in my field are quickly changing - I am no longer desired. Doing this in a financial services setting is especially stark because there's no empathy. I…

White, straight male in my 40s who worked hard to build a decent career. The feeling that this culture hates me based on each of those categories, completely without knowing me, is hard to ignore much longer without a response. The feeling comes from being on the losing side of every action the government and popular culture takes. Being told that you can’t even be involved in a conversation about that fact.

Go look at Google's Mother's Day doodles. Go look at Google's Father's Day doodles (if you can find them, suspiciously absent for a while).

"Men are trash." "Men are awful." Then look up on Wikipedia the "Women are wonderful" effect. And of course the ever-popular "dick is abundant and low-value."

You get suggestions like white people should be vaccinated last. And so on and so on. It just never stops.

It's hard to be left when it feels they hate me.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#238

Post by tsol »

staticman2 wrote: post #185
decafninja wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Providing for the family" traditionally refers to bringing in an income. Of course technically that's not the only thing, but for argument's sake. I'm curious - are there any human cultures where the woman was the traditionally (as in, not a recent modern phenomenon) the breadwinner and the men stayed at home? I know there are cultures that were matriarchal in leadership, and that there are animal species (i.e. lion…

Women needed to stay with the kids to breastfeed. Baby formula was only invented around 1865. Any traditional culture is going to need women to stay with the babies to keep them from starving. However women would take babies with them while doing things like picking nuts and berries.

Wetnurses were employed when a mother wasn't in a position to breastfeed babies for thousands of years

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#239

Post by edmcnulty101 »

thrway99 wrote: post #61

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

I think the obesity problem is linked to the fact that many people have to work 60 hours a week to survive and don't have the time/energy to get in shape.

Capitalism has taken a large swath of people out of the dating game just due to working to survive.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#240

Post by tsol »

robertlagrant wrote: post #122
mandmandam wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't mysterious. The people sucking money out of the wage pool are the 1% class, not women. 20 trillion in debt for illegal and stupid wars probably didn't help either, though it does tie in once again with the 1% class.

> The people sucking money out of the wage pool are the 1% class, not women What does that mean?

Sounds like they're talking about wealth inequality
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