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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

351–360 of 1001 posts

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#351

Men's comparative advantage, throughout human history, has always been their physical strength. It was the one thing a man could count on to provide value to society. That is no longer the case in our modern economy. You need intelligence, emotional intellect, and analytical skills. All of which men and women are on an equal footing at. So when you remove the ability to generate a viable income through physical labor…

I agreed with this until the last sentence. If men and women are on an equal footing, why are a good portion of men left without anything useful to contribute? I suppose this could hinge on the definition of "good portion." I personally don't think that a "good portion" of prime working age men or women are left without anything economically useful to contribute. American unemployment is currently low, hiring is up,…

This is a spitball take, but I'm trying it out because I'm more interested in learning how it plays out than actually making a point.

Socialization is moving at a slower pace than the shift in economics. The trade deficit starting in the 1970s has overwhelmingly affected goods [1], resulting in the exporting of goods production overseas and leaving the US with a service-based economy[2]. The US at the time had a greater proportion of gender-dependent occupations[3]. The export of goods-producing jobs tended to disproportionately affect men as a result of this gender-occupation dissymmetry[4].

At the same time, people have been socialized with system of gender values. In the past these gender values were congruent with both gendered occupations[5] and gendered occupational values[5]. However, as the proportional of service occupations grew, a portion of men found themselves socialized with values[4] incongruent with the values associated with occupations now available to them. The lag between value socialization and economic realities represent a point of friction and frustration that is expressed as a feeling of being undervalued economically[7].

1. https://www.stlouisfed.org/-/media/project/frbstl/stlouisfed...

2. https://ustr.gov/issue-areas/services-investment/services

3. https://flowingdata.com/2017/09/11/most-female-and-male-occu...

4. https://statusofwomendata.org/gender-differences-in-sectors-...

5. ANN C. MCGINLEY Masculinities at Work (2004)

6. https://www.annelitwin.com/masculine-and-feminine-workplace-... (this isn't the best source, but it is hard to find an example of how gender values connect to goods-service work and how that has changed over time)

7. Gould, R. 1974. Measuring masculinity by the size of a paycheck. In: J. Pleck & J. Sawyer (Eds.) Men and masculinity (pp. 96 – 100). Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey: Prentice-Hall.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. In all the talk of racial or gender privilege, the most beneficial privilege a person can enjoy is the benefits of a loving, supportive, traditional two-parent household (there is insufficient data on non-traditional two-parent households). You can see a direct correlation in outcomes when comparing children that emerged from two-parent households over those that emerge from single-parent households. But because…

I wonder how much of that comes down to 1.5-2x the income compared to a single parent household, versus the beneficial effect of two role models.

Seems like an easy thing to test, just adjust for income in single parents and compare outcomes. Easy enough that it's likely been done before and didn't materially change the outcomes of this kind of analysis

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A substantial population of men are also deeply concerned that a legal marriage will end in a costly, lopsided, and devastating divorce. It is no secret that women have the advantage in such proceedings.

For the breadwinner the outcome isn't very gendered, except for the conditions of custody of any children. And although not very gendered, it is a shitty contract where the worst clauses have extremely high rates of occurring. Even when isolating to later aged upper middle class economic equals, a 10% rate of triggering the worst clauses in a financial contract is extremely bad. You simply can't decouple the financia…

> For the breadwinner the outcome isn't very gendered

This is a distinction without a difference. Even today, with women's educational attainment and workforce compensation skyrocketing, they still strongly marry "up". In the aggregate, this leaves the situation arguably even worse than before:

1. More men are pushed out of the marriage market.

2. Men who are in the marriage market still face financial devastation when the wife decides it's time to "find herself" in a no-fault divorce state (e.g. nearly all of them).

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who wouldn’t prefer to stay home if they had the choice? I could spend my days traveling, hiking, going to the beach, reading, working on hobbies, learning new skills, cooking, etc.

Yes, me too. But, would you still feel the same if you had to stay home to take care of kids and a working spouse ?

And having very few adults to talk to, no status, no career advancement (in fact, the opposite), and little recognition.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who wouldn’t prefer to stay home if they had the choice? I could spend my days traveling, hiking, going to the beach, reading, working on hobbies, learning new skills, cooking, etc.

Homemaker role doesn't mean spending your days travelling, hiking or going to the beach.

Depends on how many children you have.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#356

Effect of dwindling & non-existent male role models and more importantly, fathers.

There's little evidence for that kind of causality. Economic stability, on the other hand, i.e. the effects of neoliberalism over 40 years? > "Economic transformation has been a big contributor. More than two-thirds of manufacturing workers are men; the sector has lost more than 5 million jobs since 2000. That’s a lot of unemployed men. Not just coincidentally, “deaths of despair” — those caused by suicide, overdose…

Oh so you want to live in Venezuela! -Fox News

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#357

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

While a lot of the west is “post Christian” in that very little actual worship happens, the mythology which is the lens people view reality though is very much pervasive.

The biggest examples are Christian sexual morality and the separation of things into good vs evil. Look at all of our popular culture or politics and find examples of struggles which aren’t some form of a struggle between good and evil, good guys vs bad guys. It might strike people as odd that in many other religions and cultures this idea is much much less dominant.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#358
post #309

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

I feel like at least being allowed to state that things are as bad as they are (outside anonymous forums like this) would be a great step towards getting closer to solving things. Right now we're still in a state where we have to keep a faked optimism everywhere we go which is suffocating.

What is so bad? IME, you can easily ignore all the fatalism (popular to feel on every topic) - pretend it isn't there - and do what you want.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#359

The crisis, if there is one, is that society has less use for males who have IQs between 90-105 or so, who cannot cut it in STEM, and who are finding it hard to cope with increasingly competitive economic conditions and higher overall costs like rent, and is why many men are delaying family formation or moving back with parents (but also due to careerism for women). Men are just dropping out rather than doing low-pai…

I'm 33, Ive got a fairly high IQ, make $340k in a STEM field and enough to retire tomorrow, I'm not unattractive, and put a huge amount of effort over many years into online dating. I've pretty much given up on dating. I have a total inability to find anyone I'm interested in that is interested in me.

When I was younger and I wanted to go to bars and get drunk and be an idiot I had plenty of attractive sexual partners.

So I don't buy this at all. The guys I know who have an easy time dating are 1 or 2 points more attractive, make minimum wage as yoga teachers or selling crystals or dumb stuff like that, and tell Women painfully stupid stuff they want to hear about their quantum vibrations matching and other new age nonsense.

So I can say this narrative empirically doesn't feel true for me.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's little evidence for that kind of causality. Economic stability, on the other hand, i.e. the effects of neoliberalism over 40 years? > "Economic transformation has been a big contributor. More than two-thirds of manufacturing workers are men; the sector has lost more than 5 million jobs since 2000. That’s a lot of unemployed men. Not just coincidentally, “deaths of despair” — those caused by suicide, overdose…

What you're describing is fundamentally the disappearance of the middle class. Historically, an economic middle class is a relatively recent phenomenon. For ages past and across cultures, there were "rich" and "poor" and relatively few in between. What created the middle class in the US was a government system that restricted the power of the elites to abuse that power. As Thomas Jefferson wrote: "We hold these truth…

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