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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#281

Post by jessaustin »

klodolph wrote: post #67
awinter-py wrote: post #32

great book on this topic is friedan's feminine mystique (1963). She wrote about the spiritual crisis affecting a generation of young women who were more likely to be 'homemakers' than their mothers. worth reading at least the intro IMO for anyone who feels dissatisfied with their work / life / contribution not sure how yang made this his topic. my sense of his random walk is 'had a job at yahoo' -> future of work ->…

> great book on this topic is friedan's feminine mystique (1963) Another is “The Will To Love: Men, Masculinity, and Change” by bell hooks (2004) There aren’t a lot of authors that I feel get it right about issues relating to men and masculinity. Bell hooks is one of the few. > not sure how yang made this his topic. my sense of his random walk is 'had a job at yahoo' -> future of work -> UBI -> numbers guy -> times s…

Perhaps you mean The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love?

Also, it is bizarre to characterize Yang's mayoral campaign as listening too little to advisors. He seemed a completely different person than in the presidential campaign, and it was mostly because of all the expensive new consultants.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#282

Post by rightbyte »

vharuck wrote: post #208
jimbokun wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now try proposing a space that caters to men and helps them learn and feel better.

Not to be flippant, but have you seen somebody try this and fail or be stopped? What would be the purpose of the group? Why would it need to cater to men? These aren't rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely asking.

Making a support club for men probably has the same problem as trying to start a UFO or vaccines scepticism book club - since it is taboo you will have a hard time attracting sane members.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#283

Post by anotherman554 »

beiller wrote: post #128
NylaTheWolf wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Girls Who Code" program was created because of the discrimination and bias women face in the tech industry (not to mention other workplaces and areas of life). Also, the existence of woman managers doesn't suddenly mean that sexism doesn't exist in the industry. I'd imagine that many woman managers have faced a lot of prejudice throughout their careers. And there's probably a large amount of women who want to ge…

Your comment does totally make sense. But I also wonder, would a "Men's Teachers Club" for example have the same level of acceptance?

I don't know if a men's teaching club would be accepted, but I can tell you I've been told by a female school teacher looking for work that it's much easier to get hired as a male because high school administrators are desperate for more male role models to help struggling male students given the lack of male staff in high schools.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#284

Post by trhway »

johncessna wrote: post #17
frankbreetz wrote: post #5

>>Median wages for men have declined since 1990 in real terms. Roughly one-third of men are either unemployed or out of the workforce. I wonder how much of this is because more women are joining the workforce. If men are leaving the workforce by their own free will because their wife is working and they are staying home with the kids, both of these facts could be true, but seems like a win in both gender equality ter…

> More U.S. men ages 18 to 34 are now living with their parents than with romantic partners. and > Research shows that one significant factor women look for in a partner is a steady job. As men’s unemployment rises, their romantic prospects decline. Unsurprisingly, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of data from 1960 to 2010, the proportion of adults without a college degree who marry plummeted from just ove…

> the proportion of adults without a college degree who marry plummeted from just over 70 percent to roughly 45 percent.

seems to be the answer is right here - college. Historically the basic level of necessary education has been increasing. 4 year grammar school couple centuries ago to the K-12 30 years ago, and today it is "K-16", i.e. K-12 plus college. Not having college today is more and more like not having GRE several decades ago.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#286

Post by grvdrm »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #273
chrisseaton wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen I don't think you need these things to find a partner and have children. Just go to a maternity ward. It sounds like you think everyone there is highly motivated, physically fit, and dedicated to working on relationships. They aren't. They're just normal people with a range of human flaws…

IDK starting the baby making process isn't terribly difficult once one has a partner. It's the carrying to term and everything after that is a lot of time, money, and energy. Some folks will struggle more with the partnering aspect than others. Or mustering the will and resources to begin parenting.

Spend some time reading about infertility at the start of the baby making process and I think you’ll find that it can terribly difficult. Especially as you progress into your mid/late 30s (women). And it is that starting process that can also cost lots of money, time, and energy.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#287

Post by R0b0t1 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #56
BitwiseFool wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of these men and I hope this actually works out in the end. I sense that men also have a biological clock but we can reassure ourselves that we can keep putting off settling down because of the biological reality of male reproduction. If I just get a little more successful, then I will be more attractive in courtship. But the thing is, you lose track of time really quickly. And, it is quite the bootstrapping…

> Being awkward around women in High School is a given, but as a thirty-something it can be profoundly uncomfortable and off-putting. Males should be fixing that by making some female friends. Don't go the "creepy incel who hates all women and Chads" route.

The problem is people, including women, get to pick their friends. If you're branded as awkward or ugly all women will avoid you leading to a self-perpetuating cycle.

Since women can pick their friends and generally pick gregarious, outgoing, and socially competent men for their friend groups, they ignore and do not understand the type of man who is labelled an incel.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#288

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #269
ytwombly wrote: post #150

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

> You can point to the decline of organized religion and with it traditional gender roles, but then what explains the relative stability in post-Christian Europe? As far as I can tell, Europe isn’t all that post-Christian. Even countries that have low levels of people actively practicing religion still carry a strong cultural legacy from Christianity: https://www.europenowjournal.org/2019/10/02/the-catholic-nes... Co…

[deleted]

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#289

Post by urthor »

errcorrectcode wrote: post #276

Quoted post unavailable.

The Bay Area is a skewed microcosm of transplanted misfits.

I'm not sure this is a great surprise to anyone. But the Bay Area is filled with people who:

1) Move cross country to live in the most bohemian region in the entire United States (San Francisco).

2) Often pursue a technology profession. An industry which has an entire nation of career guidance counselors steering introverts to work in.

3) Sticks with it when remote work lets them move home, at little cost.

New York also has major "self-selection" for its inhabitants (wannabe high functioning alcoholics).

It's not necessarily a bad place.

But I wouldn't treat is as a fair and balanced cross section of humanity.

Yang's article is a far more national/global perspective.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#290

Post by slowhand09 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #71
bmj wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that a career in the skilled trades can lead to very good pay, right? Yes, the work can be hard, and the hours sometimes long, but there are very clear paths to working independently, or for small shops/contractors that provide a nice degree of independence and good pay. I think high school kids in the U.S. should be exposed to STEM, the humanities, and the trades. We have pushed college/academic achie…

> You do realize that a career in the skilled trades can lead to very good pay, right? Only if you can start your independent business, which few can do pretty much by definition. That's still a recipe for bimodal outcomes. And the U.S. has pushed "college achievement" on paper, but their K-12 education still sucks. There's no way that this isn't a drag on college outcomes.

I would say of the significant number of tradesmen I've met that owned their own business, practically all worked for someone else. Thats how you acquire the skills to start your own business. I paid two guys to spackle and paint a bathroom, install a vanity and new fixtures. They were the "no experience, but lets start a business" guys you don't want to meet. 2/3 way thru, I stopped them, paid them, gave them one piece of advice - "get a mentor to work FOR". I finished the job myself.
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