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Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

bbc.co.uk

91–100 of 255 posts

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#91
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phase velocity vs group velocity. But it's pretty easy to check that everything is alright with group velocity. If there is zero neutrino production at t=0 (in the reactor's frame of reference), and then the production jumps up, there can be no doubt about the group velocity. Bizarre effects relative to superluminal phase velocity only appear when you start generating particles before t=0 and you mess with the medium…

Phase velocity vs group velocity. Yes, thank you. Why did it take me so many words? :)

Well, you gave the layman's explanation. Not everyone is well versed in these specific terms.

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#92
post #43

A news article where both the scientists and the reporter understate the claims, publish the data, and ask other teams to please prove them wrong. I like this. Most of the time the reporters overstate the research, the scientists keep the data secret, and the general public is left scratching their heads.

Most of the time ... the scientists keep the data secret Um, no. There are plenty of data being released, and in even more cases the scientists are happy to give you the data if you ask. It's very dependent on discipline, though. In astronomy, pretty much all data obtained with publicly funded facilities (e.g. including all large space instruments) are accessible by anyone after a proprietary period of 1 year.

There is also releases and updates on genomic data. It stays pretty current as far as I know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_HapMap_Project

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#93
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um... is there any trace of neutrino bursts before that? Im not sure anyone bothered checking, since such a correlation would have been very hard to justify. A neutrino burst 4 years before a supernova... so what? Could a physicist clarify whether neutrinos could travel at different speeds in vacuum like any 'normal' particle, or are 'fixed speed' like photons. We could well have had several waves with the bulk arriv…

Well, the point is that there was a neutrino burst coincident with SN87a. So if there was one 4yr earlier, too, then you'd have to explain how the same event produced two bursts of neutrinos with different speeds, while within the burst they apparently had exactly the same speed. If neutrinos have mass, they can travel at any speed (Edit: In fact, the arrival interval of those neutrinos puts an upper limit on the neu…

I'm no physicist, so I am just guessing.

It could be some phenomenon similar to what we see in emission spectrums, where a pure source can emit photons at multiple precise energy levels. except that in the case of particles with mass(apparently neutrinos have a mass) this would result in a difference in speed. Not a big enough difference to be noticed on 700 km , but enough to make a 4 yr difference on 170kly.

Of course this is still wild speculation without much background.

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#94
post #80
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientist rarely keep the data secret. It's the basis of peer review. There's a reason why open access journals (PLoS One) are getting so popular, scientists want to be known and publish. In my experience, ego is a currency much more valuable than money in academic circles.

The vast majority of the world's petroleum geologists keep their data secret.

Are they concerned with the possibility of data falsification?

This has happened in other fields.

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#95

Bearing in mind 'spooky action at a distance', shouldn't we be expecting to see some kind of mechanism that would imply some kind of particle accounting behind the scenes, that might appear as objects or information moving faster than the speed of light?

Assuming you're talking about entanglement (an effect of quantum mechanics), then no. Since QM describes the behaviour of particles (such as the 'faster than light' neutrinos in this experiment), you can't use the behaviour of particles to describe QM.

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#96
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the point is that there was a neutrino burst coincident with SN87a. So if there was one 4yr earlier, too, then you'd have to explain how the same event produced two bursts of neutrinos with different speeds, while within the burst they apparently had exactly the same speed. If neutrinos have mass, they can travel at any speed (Edit: In fact, the arrival interval of those neutrinos puts an upper limit on the neu…

I'm no physicist, so I am just guessing. It could be some phenomenon similar to what we see in emission spectrums, where a pure source can emit photons at multiple precise energy levels. except that in the case of particles with mass(apparently neutrinos have a mass) this would result in a difference in speed. Not a big enough difference to be noticed on 700 km , but enough to make a 4 yr difference on 170kly. Of cou…

Neutrinos released in type II supernova explosions are thermal, so they should have a broad spectrum unless pretty much everything we think we know about SNe is wrong.

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#97
post #50

If this result is valid then it would mean that neutrinos are capable of traveling .0025% faster than light. There was a supernova that we observed in 1987 (SN 1987) that occurred 168,000 light years away from us. A neutrino burst was observed in 3 different labs about 3 hours before the light was observed. If neutrinos are capable of traveling .0025% faster than the speed of light then why would we observe these neu…

I don't think the claimed potential result is that neutrinos always travel exactly 0.0025% faster than c, but that they can - perhaps under very specific and special circumstances. I agree with your skepticism and think we should approach this slowly, but your I don't think that your particular example disproves or contradicts the claim.

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#98
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phase velocity vs group velocity. Yes, thank you. Why did it take me so many words? :)

I'm glad that it did take you so many words. I remember reading about this a while back, but could never remember what it was called, or why the light particles actually didn't break the speed barrier. I really appreciate your laymen explanation, and now, thanks to you parent, also know what the effect is called.

Think of the wagon wheels, as seen in a western movie, turning back, or moving at bizarre speeds in either direction. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's a related phenomenon.

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#99

Well Hellen Blavatsky was right after all; Science must finnally accept not just the existence of matter but of Spirit as well. Besides scientific calculation of speed is based on the assumption that the velocities of transmission of all the colors are the same. Namely, if we call "W" length of the wave of any given color in ether, and "V" the velocity of transmission of that color, and "N" number of vibrations or wa…

wat

Oh Yes: In the 17th century Sir Issac Newton declared that light was corpuscular, that is, made of particles. Though there were some outstanding questions, this view was accepted for over 100 years. Then in 1803 Thomas Young proved that light produced an interference pattern after it passed through a narrow slit. Such an interference pattern is a distinctive indicator of a wave. His experiment, along with subsequent work by Fresnel, soon persuaded scientists that light must be a wave. In the 1860's James Clerk Maxwell produced some brilliant mathematics, today known as Maxwell's equations, and proved that electricity and magnetism were integrally related as one phenomenon. As a byproduct, his equations showed that there should exist a certain kind of wave, consisting of a special interlocked pattern of oscillating electric and magnetic waves, an electromagnetic wave. Based on other empirically known constants associated with electricity and magnetism, his equations yielded a calculated value for the speed of this electromagnetic wave. The speed was exactly the same as the velocity of light that had been calculated by other experiments. This remarkable discovery demonstrated that not only were electrify and magnetism one phenomena, but light, a phenomena seemingly quite unrelated, was also an aspect of the same electromagnetic phenomena. After these developments, and for a some time thereafter, scientists understandably had thorough confidence that light was indeed a wave.

Against the background of this solid conclusion of science, Blavatsky, writing in 1888 in the Secret Doctrine (volume I of the Secret Doctrine, called "Science and the Secret Doctrine Contrasted), gave her readers an intimation of the future when she hinted with a question.

True, the corpuscular theory of old is rejected, and the undulatory theory has taken its place. But the question is, whether the latter is so firmly established as not to be liable to be dethroned as was its predecessor? THIS HAS BEGAN!!

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#100

Similar results seem to have already been obtained in the past http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino#Speed QUOTE In the early 1980s, first measurements of neutrino speed were done using pulsed pion beams (produced by pulsed proton beams hitting a target). The pions decayed producing neutrinos, and the neutrino interactions observed within a time window in a detector at a distance were consistent with the speed of lig…

Experimental error seems likely to me once again. 10ns at c is 3 meters, over 730km + uncertainty in time of particle generation and decay + detector uncertainty...I don't buy it. From the project site: http://operaweb.lngs.infn.it/spip.php?rubrique41

OPERA needs an intense and energetic beam of muon neutrinos traveling a distance of hundreds of kilometers to seek for the appearance of oscillated tau neutrinos. A beam of this type is generated from collisions of accelerated protons with a graphite target after focussing the particles produced (pions and kaons in particular) in the desired direction. The products of their decays, muons and neutrinos, continue to travel in generally the same direction as the parent particle. Muon neutrinos produced in this way at CERN cross the earth crust reaching OPERA after a 732 km journey.

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