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Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

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Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#141

Post by tomjakubowski »

ericbarrett wrote: post #122
sdze wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also why would GMO be bad? The criticism comes mostly from people that also believe in osteopathic / homeopathic medicine in my social circle. I find it a terrific chance for humanity to engineer plants in such a way that they are more robust against disease and bad weather (with CRISPR/CAS and such methods).

Here is my criticism of GMO foods; or at least, the reason I'm wary of them. I don't believe in any "woo" at all. Why would the massive corporations that have driven the food in our supermarkets ever cheaper, ever thinner in nutrients, ever higher in fat and sweeteners and fillers, ever more laden with pesticides and antibiotics, ever more processed—why would they use a technology like GMO crops for good? Why wouldn'…

The risks from unknown unknowns are even worse with genetic engineering in crops, due to the inevitability of hypothetical "harmful to humans genes" propagating from one population to others by pollination.

The Precautionary Principle (with Application to the Genetic Modification of Organisms) https://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/pp2.pdf

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#142

Post by fodmap »

james-skemp wrote: post #55
happylion0801 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the current pace of research and studies, when do you think we could expect to see something come to 'market' that could be used - first as a diagnosis and then as a treatment/medication/technique. As someone with IBS - right now I feel like there is no clear 'problem' defined for it. You are just categorized by the doctor (Rome 3 or whatever) and people go through various tests, medications, non-fda approved stuf…

Also have an IBS diagnosis. Had a great doctor that helped me get started, after many that did a shoddy job, and this has been my experience as well. Very much a 'seems like IBS, try low FODMAP, see what works and doesn't via experience,' which was pretty amazing/alarming how little is understood about our guts. I'd love to know when the science is going to start catching up. Especially since I think it'll be interes…

I'm in the same boat as you. After some clueless doctors, I'm in the 'try low FODMAP' phase currently, and for the first time I'm improving.

I mean, we know there isn't a cure for now but it's good to have something similar to a 'normal life' again.

I also have my fingers crossed waiting for science to do its job.

I share your suspicion about current Western diets.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#143

Post by CapitalistCartr »

phantom_oracle wrote: post #138

Perhaps Westerners view all non-western science as pseudoscience or made up, but it is a well-known fact in many Eastern cultures (and their medicinal practices) that the stomach is a primary source of disease (and not just depression, but all kinds) when abused through bad eating habits. Then the wheel is re-invented with intermittent fasting, a diet with less processed foods, more veg/fruit, less meat, etc. Wheneve…

"Western Science"'s insistence on procedure, double-blind studies with control groups, finding provable reasons why, etc. have debunked most of pre-modern medicine. That some elements have withstood the test of close examination is not a criticism of our methods, more a validation. As are stunning improvements in life.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#144

Post by Jare »

wdwvt1 wrote: post #81
steelstraw wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a good way to test one's own gut microbiome? To determine how healthy it is or isn't, and to track how it changes over time. Basically I want to be able to tell how my diet and things like antibiotics affect it.

I think it's really hard - we don't know what a healthy state of the microbiome is. There is likely a lot of individuality, what is healthy for me is maybe not healthy for you. This probably has to do with early life immune system development and what we were exposed to as kids. At a high level we know that diversity of microbial species in the gut (but for instance, not in the vagina) is linked to better overall hea…

Wonder what evolutionary mechanisms made us (in general) enjoy food that's bad for us a lot more than the one that's good.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#145

Post by mahathu »

zackmorris wrote: post #99

Just another data point, but my journey through digestive issues and recovery was kicked off by the worst depression and burnout I ever experienced, which started in 2019 and lasted 3 years. My best guess for what happened is that work stress, excessive celebration and coping with the cognitive dissonance of the pre-COVID era and subsequent pandemic, combined with overtraining and the misuse of protein shakes in plac…

Thanks for sharing, but can you (or anyone else) elaborate what he means by "the cognitive dissonance of the pre-COVID era"?

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#146

Post by enchiridion »

Gatsky wrote: post #124

There was a lot of work on microbiome and cancer immunotherapy... the latest study in the field published in the most prestigious journal there is [1] seemed to show that fibre intake was more important than any specific microbe. In fact they found that eating more fibre and taking probiotics resulted in worse outcomes than just eating more fibre alone. This was recapitulated in a mouse model: > Together, these data…

Interesting result about the fiber plus probiotic. To me that’s saying that’s your body mostly knows how to maintain a micro biome if given the right building blocks.

I wonder how the immune system comes into play to actively shape the microbiome, vs our typical understanding of just “fighting bad bacteria”.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#147

Post by robocat »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #14
roywiggins wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't expect a fecal transplant to help if the bacteria were entirely incidental though.

Two patients and no control group is virtually useless for drawing any conclusions: > Indeed, researchers recently reported in Frontiers in Psychiatry that fecal transplants improved symptoms in two depressed patients. Depression research is challenging because even placebo groups tend to have dramatic improvements.

> Two patients and no control group is virtually useless for drawing any conclusions

That is a frequentist argument.

If the response to treatment is significant enough, then that is a worthwhile signal (cliché: parachutes save lives without a control group).

Placebo is an obvious contender. However presuming the patients had a chronic condition with plenty of previous interventions, then the placebo effect has had plenty of chances in the past. If it were due to placebo then there would be something to learn about why the placebo effect were so effective in that situation!

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#148

Post by omreaderhn »

Permit wrote: post #130
zackmorris wrote: post #99

Just another data point, but my journey through digestive issues and recovery was kicked off by the worst depression and burnout I ever experienced, which started in 2019 and lasted 3 years. My best guess for what happened is that work stress, excessive celebration and coping with the cognitive dissonance of the pre-COVID era and subsequent pandemic, combined with overtraining and the misuse of protein shakes in plac…

> I didn't really believe any of this in 2018, and my meal plan then consisted entirely of everything that I can't eat today. I suspect you had the same degree of confidence in your understanding of these issue then as you do now. It's interesting that you can reflect on your overconfidence in the past, but don't seem to express any skepticism regarding your current beliefs surrounding nutrition. By the way, I'm not…

There's an asymmetry in the risks associated with choosing either a) to restrict or b) not to restrict the set of foods you eat.

Overconfidence in (b) carries more risk than overconfidence in (a). The set of chemicals that are toxic is much larger (as in >>>) than the set of chemicals that are necessary for sustaining life.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#149

Post by treeman79 »

zackmorris wrote: post #99

Just another data point, but my journey through digestive issues and recovery was kicked off by the worst depression and burnout I ever experienced, which started in 2019 and lasted 3 years. My best guess for what happened is that work stress, excessive celebration and coping with the cognitive dissonance of the pre-COVID era and subsequent pandemic, combined with overtraining and the misuse of protein shakes in plac…

Autoimmune protocol diet exits for this.

Spent a month eating sweet potatoes. Best I ever felt.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#150

Post by broptimist »

sdze wrote: post #131
jay_kyburz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not into osteopathy or homeopathy but my concerned about GMO are because I don't trust that the scientist really know what they are doing, or can fully understand the impact any changes they might make, not only on humans, but on the environment at large. Nor do I trust our government to be able to police and regulate the industry. Nor do I trust big farma to put health before profits.

I think humans always genetically "engineered" plants by selection process. Our current cultivated plants are the result of thousands of years of breeding. Who knows what accidental genetic damage from breeding will cause problems in humans?

Harmful crop breeds would have been selected against over the course of many generations, right? Now we're doing it on a larger scale, so the risks and rewards are greater. What is our knowledge of the risks and rewards? Are the rewards aligned with general human wellbeing, or just a profit motive? I don't know.
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